Black Dutch? (white, population, grandmother, Spanish)

[faeryedark]

Originally Posted by saxonwold

In America, sometimes "Dutch" also meant German, because of the word "Deutsche".

Yes, the PA Dutch are actually German. most coming from the Palatinate and speaking an older form of German

[CARYN CLAMPITT]

Originally Posted by picklejuice

Used (at least in my family) to describe Cherokee ancestry during a time when it wasn't so great to be known as a Native American

I have a family full of people with dark hair, skin, eyes, and also light skin, hair, eyes!

You never know how the genes will mix and turn out!
Never judge a book by its cover. We are on the Cherokee roles, and some of us look VERY caucasian.

I relate the term Black Dutch with Native Americans as well (Cherokee). We have mostly dark hair and dark eyes, however, as you stated some family members do not follow this trait. I'm trying to get some more history on my cherokee background. We come from the Martha Webber family who originally came from TN but moved to Linton, Indiana. If you know of anyone who might have any information, please let me know. Thanks

[jmcinatlanta]

In responding to your post (not sure how old it is), my mother always said that she had Black Dutch in her family, and it turned out that she had a strong amount of Indian heritage. I know that it was not popular to be Indian during the time that her Indian ancestors first connected up with her German ones. Also, to avoid being removed to Oklahoma, many hid their heritage.

[linicx]

Aside. The original use of the phrase Black Dutch was derogatory at Germans who spoke "low German" dialect and was found in early 1800s politics on the East Coast before the Indian Removal Act was signed in 1830.

Let us look in American history before 1700. The Five Dutch Towns in New York was the foundation of Brooklyn, Midway and three other villages. The Dutch West India Compagnie allowed a church to be built. Johanes Theodorus Polhemius was its first Domanie. He was educated in Europe and had preached in Germany for several years before ministering around the world and then being sent to minister to the Dutch at Recife at Brasil. The Portuguese demanded the Dutch, Jews and the Domanie leave the Recife or align with the Catholic Church. Thus the Domanie came to the Five Dutch Towns with enough knowledge of the Dutch language that he was generally understood. By 1700 Long Island and NYC was crowded. The English ruled; The Patronymic naming convention was outlawed and the Surname was law. This how modern names such as Longstreet and Van Pelt emerged.

For better part of the first 1000 years CE in Western Europe in the Low Countries, much of it was controlled by the Holy Roman Empire of German Nations (HRE) through their royal kinsmen who were also Bishops in the Catholic Church. If was a very effective communication system. If you were Germany or Austria you spoke German, but it you live in the Low Countries you most likely spoke Dutch and some German. Thus was the plight of Dominie Polhemius.

If we go farther back in North American Indian History, and if the elders will talk to you, they will tell you of there honored ancestors who followed the track of the bison across the bridge (Beringa Bridge) between what is today called Alaska and Russia. The largest herd of Bison in the world is today in Poland. The Buffalo and horse was introduced by Spaniards; they came into the southern United States.

With the Indian Removal Act of 1830 it is quite possible Cherokee in the Carolinas stayed with Germans and others to avoid the Trail of Tears. There is a large Cherokee Tribe in the Carolinas. The other large Cherokee tribe is in Tahlequah, Oklahoma where the trail ended. Oklahoma is home to more federally recognized Native American Tribal Nations than any other state in the Union.

The North American Native Indians over many generations spread from Alaska to Florida and from west to east. There is much historic evidence in relics and mounds to support this. It is not a theory. I believe it is in Oregon there us carbon dated evidence to 11,000 years ago. Many of the Midwestern Tribes descend from the Algonkin Nation that settled on the north shores of the Great Lakes. It was minister by the name of John Eliot who created a the Eliot Bible in 1663 for the Algonkin using Engish phonics that mimicked the sounds he was taught. For the first time the Algonkin and their many tribes, sub-tribes, bands and clans could read their bible, write their stores and exchange messages

The point is the American Indian was in fact native to North America centuries before The Dutch came to New York in 1625, or the Germans to Virginia to work in the silver mines. both of which was before Pennslvania became a state. (See: Germana Colonies)

The Black Irish and Black Dutch are two different topics.

[in_newengland]

It is NOT racist to discuss Black Dutch or Black Irish. These are legitimate genealogical terms and if anyone tries to turn these threads into racist threads their posts will just be deleted. People are allowed to discuss their ancestry.

[peach89671]

I will tell you what was told to me from my grandmother and after reading several other post i believe it more now. she says her mother was full blooded Cherokee and father black Dutch or that was at least what he registered as. her father told her that him and a lot of other claimed black dutch so they did not have to move to the reservations. that there really is no such thing as black dutch. she was in her eighties when she passed i know one of her sisters was ninety eight when she passed several yrs back. so being that I'm not sure how old her father would have been when he registered.

[Three Wolves In Snow]

Originally Posted by TriMT7

Say wha.....? Hopefully this is some spoof of Afrocentric revisionist absurdity.



Anyway, back on topic.... I always assumed "Black Dutch" had the same connotation as "Black Irish".... essentially darker haired complected people.... marauding Spaniards striking again, lol

You wouldn't believe how many people believe that. My own brother believes that Black Dutch means black people. He keeps trying to say that we are part African/Black because we have Black Dutch in our ancestry.

I haven't yet corrected him because it makes me laugh inside when he tries to talk about how smart he is. I just let him keep thinking it......for now.

[linicx]

Here is a little piece of our Native American Heritage. Many of the Midwestern tribes, clans, bands and sub-tribes descend from the Algonkin (old spelling) Nation that settled on the Great Lakes thousands of years ago.

In the 1600s an Englishman who was a minister found friendly natives in Algonkin. He eventually understood it was tribe that could not read or write and he set about the task of creating a bible for the Algonkin in their own language. With the help of the tribe he learned the pronunciation for every word. You must understand that every member of thie large nation could perfectly understand each other regardless of the generation, and regardless of the accent. John Elliot created the Algonkin Bible from English phonics. It was the first time they could read their own bible, and the first time they could write their own stories.

The Algonkin Bible was the first book printed in the young Colonies. Tahlequah!

Those of us who look for our ancestors are curious creatures who are part scientific researchers, part detective, and part Blood Hound. Tracking and finding our ancestors open the door to history (a snap shot in time) and learning. It also opens the door to debunk errors. For instance I had a cousin state,"Our 6th gen grandmother was born in Holland of Dutch parents." Actually she was a second generation Colony child whose parents were not born in or near Holland. The maternal great-grandfather was born in the Low Countries in a principality. Amsterdam Holland was the busiest sea port in the world in the 1600s, and this is where their grandfathers boarded a wooden boat for a 90 day voyage to cross the Atlantic Ocean. I knew nothing of this history, I didn''t speak Dutch, and I didn't know anything about the Low Countries in Western Europe until I decided to learn. It took about six years to decide. I had no idea when I started it would be another seven years, to learn a few words in Dutch, and a little Medieval history, before I could actually write a coherent sentence regarding my ancetstors and where they lived and died. Now I am trying to trace my Virginians who moved frequently between NC, SC, TN and KY. Sigh.....

[ABQConvict]

I always thought Black Dutch, like Black Irish, referred to people whose appearance is associated with R1b markers. It goes back to way before the Spanish Armada, a mere 500 or so years ago, but to the recession of the last galcial maximum around 10,000 years ago and predates Indo-European and Semitic admixture in the European population.

'Black' in these cases refers to hair color and slightly darker complection. Think Sean Connery or your average non-Mediterranean Spaniard. The type exists all along the Atlantic fringe of Europe including countries with a reputation for fair hair and complections like the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway as well as Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, and of course, the British Isles.

[salidon]

Well . . . seems none of us are truly certain about the term Black Dutch, myself included.

My mother's mother, told me that when she was a little girl, she and her mother visited her mother's brother named Obadiah. She noticed the family members were all dark skinned, but not black. She presumed they were indians. When she asked her uncle what tribe they were from, Uncle Obe blurted out, "Indian!? We're not indian! We're Black Dutch!"

My mother explained later that we called ourselves that because of our Jewish background, "but don't say anything, okay?" It was all very hush-hush at the time. The story was confirmed by mother's sister and even grandma. I wish there were written records to verify any of this, but no . . . so, I am not truly certain. I only have family stories.