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Old 06-22-2011, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864

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Those forms usually make Race a multiple choice question. Pick the one you feel best characterizes you. Always feel free to put down "Other". Furthermore, it is illegal to make that question mandatory (and it should say so on the form), unless it is for something like issuing official ID, where your apparent race can be used as an identifying characteristic. I could be wrong about that, but that is my impression of the law.

The law now is, I think, that race, ethnicity, etc, are voluntary disclosures, and you are whatever you say you are, and you can be something else tomorrow. Every once in a while, on a whim, I decide to be a Pacific Islander, or an Aleut.

In a few cases, it is regarded as obligatory, but only to qualify for some entitlement. For example, if you want Native American tribal status, you may need to prove your ancestry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post

Point is, African Americans are all black, but not all blacks are African American. .
"African American" is a ridiculous, contrived invention, that describes absolutely nothing of any relevance, except to relieve cowed Americans of the jeers of the thought police. Baseball Hall of Famer Ferguson Jenkins and NHL defenseman P K Subban and jazz immortal Oscar Peterson are not African Americans. They are African Canadians.

Why don't Egyptians get to be African Americans when they come over here? If you don't start using the term "Sub-Saharan African North Americans", you are violating both Political Correctness and Geo-political Correctness, and I sentence you to Sensitivity Training.

From now on, I insist on being classified as a "yDNA Haploid G Lithuanian-American" and if you call me anything else, My People in the Media will lunge at the chance to see to it that you are never elected to political office.

Last edited by jtur88; 06-22-2011 at 01:59 PM..
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,902,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
"African American" is a ridiculous, contrived invention, that describes absolutely nothing of any relevance, except to relieve cowed Americans of the jeers of the thought police.
What in the hell are you talking about?

Quote:

Baseball Hall of Famer Ferguson Jenkins and NHL defenseman P K Subban and jazz immortal Oscar Peterson are not African Americans. They are African Canadians.
So are Donald Brashear, Russell Martin and Rocky Johnson (ne Wayde Bowles, father of wrestler/actor Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson). What is your point? Nobody is calling them African Americans (though the fathers of Martin and Brashear were).

Quote:
Why don't Egyptians get to be African Americans when they come over here? If you don't start using the term "Sub-Saharan African North Americans", you are violating both Political Correctness and Geo-political Correctness, and I sentence you to Sensitivity Training.
They can be, if they decide to assimilate into the predominant African American culture. Usually an obviously black American who is born here to Egyptian parents often does exactly that.

Quote:
From now on, I insist on being classified as a "yDNA Haploid G Lithuanian-American" and if you call me anything else, My People in the Media will lunge at the chance to see to it that you are never elected to political office.

Your smug but misguided attempts to deride something an entire people have created reveals the crux of why we call ourselves "African" Americans. You know what region, country, area your ancestors came from. We have no idea, except that they were from Africa. I, like many African Americans, don't know what my haplogroup is - there is indeed a chance that it is NOT African - but I do know that I am of African ancestry. Hence the term "African American."

What is so complicated about that?
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Old 06-22-2011, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
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The point is, Lucario, that "African American", even by your own admission, describes people as neither African nor American, but only (like your hypothetical Egyptian) as their assimilation by choice. It can even be done fraudulently. I can become an African American in a two-step process. 1. Declare that my grandfather was of African ancestry, and 2. Assimilate into African American culture.

I feel no need to publicly identify myself by "what region, country, area my ancestors came from." And I have a right to cast doubt on the motives of people who do. That mine are from Europe and yours are from Africa is sufficiently obvious that neither of us needs to wear a name-tag confirming that. I'm white and you're black, and neither of us needs to remind anybody of that. We are both Americans, and that also requires no verbal reinforcement. I resent being called insensitive for harboring that view, which strikes me as being perfectly fair and egalitarian.
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,902,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The point is, Lucario, that "African American", even by your own admission, describes people as neither African nor American, but only (like your hypothetical Egyptian) as their assimilation by choice. It can even be done fraudulently.
Actually, that is as far from the point as Michelle Bachmann's Presidential aspirations are from reality. African Americans are from a distinct, specific culture, one that formed here in the USA from a distinct set of historical circumstances. I have discussed this very extensively on C-D on many threads. There is no ambiguity. The case you are speaking about, the allowance for assimilation, applies in the case of that hypothetical Egyptian and in the case of someone like President Obama, who is of African ancestry and has consciously married into and otherwise assimilated into the established (over centuries) African American culture. We are Americans of African origin who have forged a culture, primarly within the Southern United States. Again, I don't understand what is so complicated.


Quote:
I can become an African American in a two-step process. 1. Declare that my grandfather was of African ancestry, and 2. Assimilate into African American culture.
I'm pretty sure you'd never be able to pull it off, as you obviously are not of African ancestry. You couldn't assimilate if you wanted to, even though because of hypodescent it is possible for someone who appears to be white to be part of the African American culture/community. My ancestors are very much of a mixed bag, but I could never identify as a German, a Spaniard or a Chinese (or their American descendants) either in America or the Old Country. The fact that you think you could actually attempt to be African American is the difference - a fundamental, immutable difference - between you and I. Of course, being a white man, I don't see why you'd want to pass for black anyway. I mean, many whites are jealous of our looks and culture, but they come back to reality when they realize just how tough it is to actually be black in this society.

Quote:
I feel no need to publicly identify myself by "what region, country, area my ancestors came from."
You're a white man. You have no need to. You are seen as a human being, not Other.

Quote:
And I have a right to cast doubt on the motives of people who do. That mine are from Europe and yours are from Africa is sufficiently obvious that neither of us needs to wear a name-tag confirming that. I'm white and you're black, and neither of us needs to remind anybody of that. We are both Americans, and that also requires no verbal reinforcement. I resent being called insensitive for harboring that view, which strikes me as being perfectly fair and egalitarian.

And there's the rub. This society is neither fair nor egalitarian, and I don't understand why you have problems with people who are black calling themselves African American while whites call themselves Italian American, Irish American, Greek American, German American, Portuguese American, Slovak American, Turkish American, etc., etc.. What is the difference?
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post



And there's the rub. This society is neither fair nor egalitarian, and I don't understand why you have problems with people who are black calling themselves African American while whites call themselves Italian American, Irish American, Greek American, German American, Portuguese American, Slovak American, Turkish American, etc., etc.. What is the difference?
Maybe I have a problem with it because I don't know a single white person who has ever called himself any of the above. Their ancestry (like yours) is pretty obvious to everyone, and they're just people, without labels.

I don't think this society is fair or egalitarian either, but I'm not going to take the blame for it, and I resent being told to think or speak the way the thought-police want me to. I see what I see, not what I'm told to see.

You told me a couple of posts back that "Some blacks, from, say, Fiji, New Guinea, parts of the Philippines or Vanuatu, are not even African." Well, you know what? There used to be a word for blacks who were African: Negro. But you didn't like it, you said it was racist, and you stomped it out of the vocabulary. And now there is no word for blacks who are African. If there is, please tell me what it is. It sure as hell isn't "African American".

Last edited by jtur88; 06-22-2011 at 11:41 PM..
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,902,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Maybe I have a problem with it because I don't know a single white person who has ever called himself any of the above.
I find that very hard to believe, but whatever.


Quote:
Their ancestry (like yours) is pretty obvious to everyone, and they're just people, without labels.
I don't think it would be that obvious. If you saw me, you would know I am black, but you would not know that I am African American (on one side). If I saw you, I would not have any idea of your ethnicity. However, if I knew your surname (maybe -aitis, -auskas, etc.) I would know that you were Lithuanian in ancestry. You would never know what my ancestry was by my surname, because I don't even know.

Quote:
I don't think this society is fair or egalitarian either, but I'm not going to take the blame for it, and I resent being told to think or speak the way the thought-police want me to. I see what I see, not what I'm told to see.
Yeah, well, you can see whatever you want. Doesn't mean you're seeing what is actually happening.

Quote:
You told me a couple of posts back that "Some blacks, from, say, Fiji, New Guinea, parts of the Philippines or Vanuatu, are not even African." Well, you know what? There used to be a word for blacks who were African: Negro.
That's your word. Not mine.


Quote:
But you didn't like it, you said it was racist, and you stomped it out of the vocabulary.
Thanks for giving me credit for that, though I really can't take any.


Quote:
And now there is no word for blacks who are African. If there is, please tell me what it is. It sure as hell isn't "African American".

African? You mean as in from African countries such as Ghana, Nigeria, Egypt, Kenya? How about Ghanaian, Nigerian, Egyptian and Kenyan?

Again............I don't know why this is so complicated.
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Old 06-23-2011, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Columbus
222 posts, read 476,304 times
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Ethinicity and race are different. I am of Afro -american ethnicity, which means my ethnicity contains the traits of all african americans. My race is black meaning I bare characteristics of all those dark people of color. When most people say race most people mean color or pigment you are related to or cultural influence. Even though Indians are black and i say they are black ask them what race they are they would say asian or Indian. But most black americans say I am a part of the black race. And about the term Hispanic, this term is given to anybody who speaks spanish. So this term is neither race nor ethnicity it's a classification. I meant any body who speaks spanish as their mother tongue or spanish is their native tongue.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:27 AM
 
488 posts, read 1,011,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post

And there's the rub. This society is neither fair nor egalitarian, and I don't understand why you have problems with people who are black calling themselves African American while whites call themselves Italian American, Irish American, Greek American, German American, Portuguese American, Slovak American, Turkish American, etc., etc.. What is the difference?
The problem is, for the first time in history, "they" (aka white people) didn't get to choose what to call black people.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,668 posts, read 71,556,197 times
Reputation: 35864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
Yeah, well, you can see whatever you want. Doesn't mean you're seeing what is actually happening.

That's your word. Not mine.

Thanks for giving me credit for that, though I really can't take any.
Yes, I "can" see whatever I want, but I don't choose to see what I "want", nor do I choose to see what you want me to see. I choose to see what appears before me, and to interpret it according to a logical process of deduction.

It is interesting that you personally blame me for the existence of the word Negro, but you deny any complicity yourself in the abolition of the word from the language. Thanks for giving me credit for a word that has been in the English vocabulary for centuries, all that time agreed upon by both the academic discipline of ethnology and the general common usage to mean "black people sub-Saharan African ancestry". That's not the same as African American. Give us a word.

I used to live in a city that had schools, police, a jail, a hospital and Negroes in it. Now the city has attendance centers, law enforcement officers, a correctional and rehabilitational institution, a health care complex, and African Americans. It's a hell of a way to run a language. And I blame people who insist on makeing up new words that don't work, to replace old ones that did work.

Everybody knows what a jail is. Calling it a correctional and rehabilitational institution doesn't make it any different from what it always was. Anybody who's ever been in one knows that it just replaces the truth with a lie. "You can see whatever you want. Doesn't mean you're seeing what is actually happening."

Last edited by jtur88; 06-23-2011 at 09:53 AM..
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,902,513 times
Reputation: 11780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Fruit View Post
The problem is, for the first time in history, "they" (aka white people) didn't get to choose what to call black people.
Yup, and it's driving at least some of them batty...........
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