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Old 10-03-2011, 09:10 PM
 
Location: The High Seas
5,624 posts, read 6,948,976 times
Reputation: 6363
God.

Well....if you go back far enough.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
1,850 posts, read 2,004,464 times
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I guess I'd have to say I'm proud of all of them, from what I have found out. They worked hard and fought hard,some founded towns and some just tried to scrap out aliving where ever they could.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:40 AM
 
Location: southeast SD
159 posts, read 129,675 times
Reputation: 198
my great great great grandfather was one of the first lighthouse keepers in the Oregon Territory
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Old 10-05-2011, 12:36 AM
 
Location: Pacific NW
6,415 posts, read 5,374,941 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
Well, I am certainly not proud of my ancestors who were Confederate soldiers.
That's certainly your choice, but I don't understand that attitude. Put yourself in their shoes. They were doing nothing more than the Revolutionary soldiers were.

In the Revolution, they were tired of the existing government, broke away and formed their own government, said government's reply was oh no you won't, so had to fight to try to expel them. And won.

In the Civil War, the south was tired of the existing government, broke away and formed their own government, said government's reply was oh no you won't, so had to fight to try to expel them. And lost.

To think the south was simply fighting for slavery is to not know very much about the whole situation, or the people involved.
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
23,933 posts, read 19,751,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnricoV View Post
That's certainly your choice, but I don't understand that attitude. Put yourself in their shoes. They were doing nothing more than the Revolutionary soldiers were.

Well, I am descended from slave and master, Yankee and Rebel. Someone in my shoes - such as my great-grandfather - would not have fared as well under a Confederate regime as he did under the Union. That pretty much tells me all I need to know.

Quote:
In the Revolution, they were tired of the existing government, broke away and formed their own government, said government's reply was oh no you won't, so had to fight to try to expel them. And won.

In the Civil War, the south was tired of the existing government, broke away and formed their own government, said government's reply was oh no you won't, so had to fight to try to expel them. And lost.

To think the south was simply fighting for slavery is to not know very much about the whole situation, or the people involved.
Whether or not they were fighting for slavery only is irrelevant to those who were enslaved.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:33 AM
 
1,249 posts, read 1,026,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnricoV View Post
Hmmm? You do know that the so-called Patriots were rebelling against the standing government, and the Tories were supporting the government that ruled the nation, don't you?

Not saying one is right or wrong, but ... no reason not to be proud of anyone who fought for what they believed in. Whatever it was.

I always find it amusing that so many people think that the Colonists were so on the right side in the Revolution, but the South was so wrong in the Civil War. They both were doing essentially the same thing.
So, anyone who wears an uniform and fights for anything is worthy of pride? Would you be proud of a relative who participated in genocide?
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Old 10-05-2011, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Pacific NW
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Originally Posted by poletop1 View Post
So, anyone who wears an uniform and fights for anything is worthy of pride? Would you be proud of a relative who participated in genocide?
Would I think they'd done the right thing? Of course not. But I'm unwilling to judge people from a time and life that I've not lived, using today's standards.

The statement was a very generic one ... labeling all Confederates as <<<bad>>>. That'd be like saying anyone who fought in the German Army during WWII was bad. They weren't. They were people like you and me, but who lived in a time and situation I can't comprehend. By my standards, they were on the wrong side. But that doesn't make them bad, evil people.

I guess I'm just not willing to blame the wrongness in the policies of a nation on it's simple foot soldiers. I think it all has to be taken in perspective. You may do what you wish.
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,141 posts, read 15,770,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poletop1 View Post
So, anyone who wears an uniform and fights for anything is worthy of pride? Would you be proud of a relative who participated in genocide?
I prefer not to apply today's morality to 150-200 years ago. I'm descended from people who it could be said by today's standards, committed genocide while not wearing a uniform. Some killed Indians while settling the American frontier. Some also hunted down fugitive slaves. I'm not proud or ashamed of them for doing things we wouldn't approve of today but considered morally acceptable at the time. I probably would be ashamed had they done things considered reprehensible back then.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:02 PM
 
1,249 posts, read 1,026,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnricoV View Post
Would I think they'd done the right thing? Of course not. But I'm unwilling to judge people from a time and life that I've not lived, using today's standards.

The statement was a very generic one ... labeling all Confederates as <<<bad>>>. That'd be like saying anyone who fought in the German Army during WWII was bad. They weren't. They were people like you and me, but who lived in a time and situation I can't comprehend. By my standards, they were on the wrong side. But that doesn't make them bad, evil people.

I guess I'm just not willing to blame the wrongness in the policies of a nation on it's simple foot soldiers. I think it all has to be taken in perspective. You may do what you wish.
If you are not going to blame someone for something negative they did because you do not live their time/situations/standards/etc., then why be proud of someone and judge them positively? Are positive traits timeless but acknowledging mass murder as immoral act a recent fad? It would make a lot more sense if you said you could not say either way if someone from the past committed good or bad deeds. The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade and the Holocaust were two of the most massive genocides and inhumanities of all-time. If I cannot judge those movements and all the actions that supported them as immensely immoral, I'm not sure what is. Also, there have been philosophies and religious and cultural traditions dating back millenniums that condemn cruelty and promote something similar to the Golden Rule. As you said, they were people like you and I, so they have no excuse for not knowing what they did. I did not live in the same era, area or background as Jeffrey Dahmer but I have no problem with saying his actions were morally reprehensible. Do you honestly give a caveat at past atrocities?


Now your last point was much more logical. Yes, the amount of power, participation and severity one engages in a deplorable act matters, both in terms of moral responsibility and legal culpability. Still, there is a difference between a small or even minute amount of responsibility and none what so ever. All those who supported the Third Reich on any level ought to have been ashamed, even military servicemen.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:15 PM
 
1,249 posts, read 1,026,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
I prefer not to apply today's morality to 150-200 years ago. I'm descended from people who it could be said by today's standards, committed genocide while not wearing a uniform. Some killed Indians while settling the American frontier. Some also hunted down fugitive slaves. I'm not proud or ashamed of them for doing things we wouldn't approve of today but considered morally acceptable at the time.
Oh, more moral relativism. How are you being any different from someone saying, "Hey, we can't judge the Nazi's by the morality seven decades later."
Well, why were there critics of imperialism and slaughter back then? If this idea of morality is so new, then why has the Golden Rule been prevalent throughout history? Why do other sapient species feature such societal norms? You can admit that your ancestors did heinous things if that's the case. There is no shame; you did not do it. The only shame is being dishonest about history and whitewashing past crimes. Why does it matter whether you are the decedent of someone who committed brutal acts? If they were not your atavus, would you then concede that their actions were deplorable? As you rightfully said, you should not feel guilt or pride for their actions but that applies for all their actions.


Quote:
I probably would be ashamed had they done things considered reprehensible back then.
Like teaching a slave to read?
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