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Old 08-11-2013, 03:41 PM
 
13,140 posts, read 35,968,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TootsieWootsie View Post
Good grief, you surely know alot about dna, Six Foot Three! Wow...impressive!

I read the Js and Ts were JT but broke off. The Js are Ashkanazi Jews but the Ts aren't Jewish at all. Do you understand this part of dna?

I really admire your indepth research on dna, 6'3"!
TW

I'm not an expert in ancestry genetics however just someone who has a passion researching ancient european history and it's associated haplogrouping genetics but I do humbly appreciate the cool words .

O.k. I do have to plead my ignorance when it comes to the Ashkanazi Jews as I've haven't studied much about them however in Bryan Sykes book ''The Seven Daughters of Eve'' he does mention a bit about them as they are high in mtDNA K (Katrine) which is found in low levels around the Alps region of Europe (Otzi the Ice Man's DNA). That being said mtDNA J especially J1c from some of my readings ''seems'' to be located in higher numbers in the areas e.g. Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltic States and so I wouldn't be surprised if many of the European Ashkanazi Jews have higher rates of J in their maternal bloodline.

Last edited by Six Foot Three; 08-11-2013 at 04:45 PM.. Reason: Changed
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:49 AM
 
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I am also T2b and I am American. I really have to question someone's assertion that T2B are not Jewish because J is the marker for Jewish. That's not entirely correct. E1a1b1 is the marker for ASHKENAZI, but T2e is now considered the marker for Sephardi. T2e is called the SISTER of T2b.

But these are mtDNA, not Y-dna. And if we go back as far as we can, let's consider this, while it is proposed that T2b spread first to Italy, it does not mean that every T2b woman went to Italy, Russia, Hungary and in to Finland, it simply means that at some point in history, those women were taken there. Someone may have an ancestress in Syria more recently.

I propose this theory, the Bible's history (and yes it can be taken as historical) records the mother's names of the mothers of the sons of Jacob. And if we go by that, we know that most Jewish women consider Rachel as their matriarchal ancestress, but there were three other women. Her sister Leah is the first, then Bilha and Zilpah.

We don't really know the origins of Bilha and Zilpah, but we can assume they were from Aram as well. And historically, Aram is the area we know as Syria today. So considering that these four women may have been from the same area, they could have reasonably had the same mtDNA, at least Leah and Rachel did. My theory is that if we count the matriarch of Ashkenazi as Rachel, then Leah is the matriarch of the Sephardi or Mizrahi. But the Mizrahi went to Assyria as part of the northern tribes that eventually were lost. So it is not unreasonable then that the children of Leah went in either direction. They would still be considered as children of Israel, because Jacob is the patriarch.

What we are doing is inserting a later organized faith onto a group of people who had their roots before the organization of the faith. To say someone is Jewish solely because of a haplotype, which Ashkenazi haplotypes are the result of founder effect, that dismisses history altogether.

Jacob was recorded as having one daughter, Dina. We know nothing about what happened to her, but we know she was the daughter of Leah. Because Rachel only had sons, there would have been no daughters to pass her mtDNA through. Therefore, when the sons married women that carried other mtDNA, but retained identity of sons of Israel, it led to the founder effect.

If we are talking about Jewish genealogy and DNA, it's only right to consider their patriarchs and matriarchs that is recorded. But somehow, the lives of the other mothers were forgotten. I feel comfortable in thinking that my ancestress could be Leah, Bilha or Zilpha. Or she may have been Rachel.

Geographically it is not hard to believe that some women could have gone from Syria to Italy, the distance from Aleppo to Rome is not even as far as half way across the United States. It's like saying today your ancestors were from New York but migrated to Iowa. Considering that distance, it's really not that far.

But Hungary is not that far from Syria either. We know that Barbara of Celje from Hungary was also T2b. She was not Jewish if we think of Jewish as a faith. She may have had Jewish relatives that were not necessarily Ashkenazi.

So when talking about who is Jewish or not Jewish, we need to think first if they are Ashkenazi, Sephardi or Mizrahi. What makes them Jewish based on haplotypes? Y-DNA? If we are thinking they are Jewish because of Y-DNA, then it dismisses the concept of matrilinial descent. And if they are Jewish by matrilinial descent, meaning they are Jewish if their mother was, then stop looking at Y-DNA, which in essence would mean nothing to Jewish identity. The Cohen Modal simply means they are descendents of the priestly class, the Levites.

If Jewish history is correct, then all women that are Jewish should carry the haplotypes of the original mothers, and those mothers were Syrian. But they are not, therefore Jewish men must have married women that converted. Now people are still inserting Y-DNA onto a matrilinial concept.

Leah is still not as honored as Rachel, and I think it's about time she was. After all, she was the mother of most of the tribes, even Levi. Rachel was the mother only of Joseph and Benjamin. Joseph married an Egyptian woman, I don't know who Benjamin married. But even at that, there still was only one daughter of Jacob recorded, and that was Dina, the daughter of Leah. She would be the only matrilial haplotye associated with the patriarch of Judaism. So it makes sense then that we should trace what happened to Dina. That's my opinion.

No one has to agree with my assumption.
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Old 09-08-2015, 09:02 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,375 times
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Hello Everyone,

I am T2b (mitochondrial dna) on 23andme, and T2b16 on FTDNA.
My ancestors lived in Germany, Hungary/Austria, Russia/Poland, and Denmark!
I am just not clear how my MTDNA is the same as people from Ireland, and all over Europe, when I thought I was 100% Ashkenazi. Turns out I am not, 6.5% of my DNA is a European mixture. The oddest thing I learned was that my Mtdna today is predominantly found in the Udmurt people! I looked them up and found a lot of beautiful red-heads! It's funny, both of my brothers grew beards in the 70's and they both had red patches in the middle. My youngest brother was tow-headed blonde, and no, my Mom didn't date the milkman. The relationship of mtdna to migrations, anthropology and modern culture is fascinating, and I hope to hear from others with any knowledge or observations.
99.7% European
of that,
93.5% is Ashkenazi
1.1% Eastern European
Northern European
0.2% Scandinavian
0.9% Broadly Northern European

Southern European
0.4% Broadly Southern European
3.6% Broadly European
0.1% East Asian & Native American
East Asian 0.1%
Yakut
< 0.1%
Native American
< 0.1%
Broadly East Asian & Native American
0.1%
Middle Eastern & North African
0.1%
North African
0.1%
Unassigned
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Old 09-08-2015, 10:34 PM
AFP
 
6,058 posts, read 3,622,558 times
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I'm T2b-T16296C!.
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Old 09-13-2015, 05:19 AM
 
Location: California
2 posts, read 4,650 times
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Hi I'm also T2b. I'm a beginner and must confess I'm totally confused. Especially when I receive matches from FTDNA with names I've never heard of and are not from the region of Poland/Russia. I wanted to learn more about my grandmother, the only info I have before she married my grandfather is her maiden name, I don't have her mothers maiden name. I haven't contacted the matches because I have no idea what I'm suppose to ask them.
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Old 09-13-2015, 09:03 AM
AFP
 
6,058 posts, read 3,622,558 times
Reputation: 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carole D View Post
Hi I'm also T2b. I'm a beginner and must confess I'm totally confused. Especially when I receive matches from FTDNA with names I've never heard of and are not from the region of Poland/Russia. I wanted to learn more about my grandmother, the only info I have before she married my grandfather is her maiden name, I don't have her mothers maiden name. I haven't contacted the matches because I have no idea what I'm suppose to ask them.
It is unlikely you will have an mtDNA match with a common ancestry within a genealogical time frame for some time for HVR1 matches there is an probability that the common ancestor lived within the last 1,300 years. This link is helpful.

https://www.familytreedna.com/tr_mtDNA.pdf
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Old 09-13-2015, 11:23 AM
 
Location: California
2 posts, read 4,650 times
Reputation: 11
Thank you
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Old 09-13-2015, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
8,216 posts, read 12,800,785 times
Reputation: 10446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carole D View Post
Hi I'm also T2b. I'm a beginner and must confess I'm totally confused. Especially when I receive matches from FTDNA with names I've never heard of and are not from the region of Poland/Russia. I wanted to learn more about my grandmother, the only info I have before she married my grandfather is her maiden name, I don't have her mothers maiden name. I haven't contacted the matches because I have no idea what I'm suppose to ask them.
You took the mtDNA test? Was it the full sequence test or just HVR1/HVR2? Your shared maternal ancestry with an mtDNA match can go back hundreds or even thousands of years. It is possible to get a match within a genealogical time frame with the full sequence test, but not hugely likely.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:08 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,014 times
Reputation: 10
Default T2b

Quote:
Originally Posted by TootsieWootsie View Post
Good grief, you surely know alot about dna, Six Foot Three! Wow...impressive!

I read the Js and Ts were JT but broke off. The Js are Ashkanazi Jews but the Ts aren't Jewish at all. Do you understand this part of dna?

I really admire your indepth research on dna, 6'3"!

I am T2b and I have 23 genetic markers directly related to Ashkenazi Jews. I am still just learning about DNA, but I don't think that the Jewish just drops off of the T and stays on the J. Have you found anything else out so far?
[URL="http://www.city-data.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/"][/URL]
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:44 PM
 
Location: On the road
2,642 posts, read 1,826,196 times
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Mine shows as T2B, as well. It seem, according the the Nat Geo Geno project T2B is a predominant Western Asia line beginning some 10k years back, and migrating into Eastern/Central Europe. I am just learning about all this stuff, myself.
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