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Old 08-17-2013, 02:37 PM
bjh
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
Bad Call

The ancestry of Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon is well know. She was almost all English and only a little part Scottish, Her father did have a Scottish title, the Earldom of Strathmore and Kinghorne which he inherited in 1904, but he was very English as was her mother.

77.5390625% English
12.5000000% Anglo-Irish
05.17578125% French
03.12500000% Irish
0.87890625% Scottish
0.78125% Dutch
======================
100.0 %
I don't think you understand how the British view heritage. Link: BBC News | The Queen Mother

BBC News link quoted in part, "Some called her the Scottish Queen even though she was, in fact, born in England. Certainly, she always regarded herself as a Scot."
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjh View Post
I don't think you understand how the British view heritage.

BBC News link quoted in part, "Some called her the Scottish Queen even though she was, in fact, born in England. Certainly, she always regarded herself as a Scot."
It is possible. Let me explain the position. The original two Earls were full blooded Scot (as far as anyone knows).
Patrick Lyon, 1st Earl of Kinghorne (1575–1615)
John Lyon, 2nd Earl of Kinghorne (1596–1646)

But the second Earl married a woman who was half Scottish and and half English So the third Earl was 3/4 Scot, and 1/4 English. But the title he inherited was still Scottish.

Patrick Lyon, 3rd Earl of Kinghorne (1643–1695)
During his life, the designation of the earldom changed to "Strathmore and Kinghorne".

Now each subsequent Earl married a woman who was mostly English. Although some had some Scottish blood, none were full blooded Scottish.

By the time that we get to the 14th Earl (the father of the Queen Mother) the title remains Scottish, but after 12 generations of intermarriage he is less than 1% Scottish. His wife, Nina Cecilia Cavendish-Bentinck, is also less than 1% Scottish. Therefore their daughter, the Queen Mother was less than 1% Scottish.
============
I think you are saying that you should ignore the ethnic heritage of the wives for the last 4 centuries. Since the line was established in Scotland by Scottish people, and the title was passed down as a Scottish title, that makes the Queen Mother Scottish.

But I think normal convention is to simply look at your heritage. My paternal grandfather was from Spain, my paternal grandmother was Hungarian, my maternal grandfather was from France, and my maternal grandmother's family has a history in this country which goes back along one line to Germany. I usually say that I am 25% Spanish, 25% Hungarian, 25% French, and last 25% a mix of northern European (mostly Palatinate German). I don't give special treatment to my paternal line. Now I don't have a title or a castle which is different than the Queen Mother.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:49 PM
 
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Just elaborating on the Earls of Strathmore and Kingsford. Counting down from father to son we use the numbering of the Earls. They are not consecutive since the line passed through brothers and cousins, but then died out

% Scottish - Earl # - (ethnicity of spouse)
100.000% 1 (Scottish)
100.000% 2 (½ English + ½ Scottish)
75.000% 3 (English)
37.500% 4 (English)
18.750% 8 (English)
9.375% 9 (English + 1/16 Scottish)
7.813% 11 (mixed but with no Scottish)
3.906% -- (mixed but with no Scottish)
1.953% 13 (mixed but with no Scottish)
0.977% 14 (mixed but with no Scottish)

By this calculation, the Queen Mother's father had a Scottish title, but he was less than 1% Scottish because his ancestors repeatedly married women who were mostly English with a little French and Anglo French. There was a small re-infusion of Scottish blood in 1767, when the 9th Earl married the heiress Mary Eleanor Bowes, who was 1/16 Scottish . As a result their son (11th Earl) received Scottish blood from both parents and was (3/32+2/32)/2 percent Scottish.

The mother of the Queen mother was also less than 1% Scottish.

Using fractions I can count down the fraction of Scottish blood in each Earl
full 1st Earl
full 2nd Earl
3/4 3
3/8 4
3/16 8
3/32 9
(3/32+1/16)/2 =5/64 11
5/128 --
5/256 13
5/512 14

Last edited by PacoMartin; 08-18-2013 at 01:59 PM..
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Old 08-18-2013, 04:06 PM
bjh
 
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Why all the excitement over CraigCreek's comment that the Queen Mum considered herself a Scot?

It's not about percentages. Anyway most folks have other things to think about.

I wish you well, my friend.
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:02 PM
 
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While we're getting into petty details, I looked up Queen Elizabeth's height. She is listed as being 5'4", just about average for a woman of her age (I suspect she may have lost an inch or so, which is also typical of those of her age bracket).

The tall genes displayed in many of the younger members of the royal family appear to come from Prince Philip, who has Danish background - i.e., Viking way back there - and the late Diana, Princess of Wales. I seem to recall that Sarah Ferguson (i.e., the Duchess of York) is also fairly tall, but being far less willowy than was Diana, looks shorter.

Okay. just checked: Sarah Ferguson is 5'7". Princess Beatrice is 5'4", same as her grandmother, the queen. But Princess Eugenie is 5'8".
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjh View Post
Why all the excitement over CraigCreek's comment that the Queen Mum considered herself a Scot? It's not about percentages. Anyway most folks have other things to think about. I wish you well, my friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
While we're getting into petty details,...
I am confused about the hostility. Genealogy is a fairly rigorous science and is all about percentages.

The other day I read in the newspaper a columnist who triumphantly wrote that the British royal family was detestable, and they were actually German and had no business on the throne. I have heard that comment made many times. It almost brought down the monarchy in WWI.

The point of the bloodline analysis is to determine exactly what is their ethnicity.

In order to get the ethnicity of the Queen Mother you have to consider 8 generations of a Scottish Earls marrying women who were mostly English. Following simple percentages she is shown to be less than 1% Scottish blood.
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Old 03-10-2021, 08:54 PM
 
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Why didn't the lands of Prydain/Brython lose this claimed "royalty" at the Revolution?

Last edited by Ligurian; 03-10-2021 at 09:17 PM..
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Old 03-12-2021, 12:18 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
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I realize this topic is from 2013, but even so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
I am confused about the hostility. Genealogy is a fairly rigorous science and is all about percentages.

The other day I read in the newspaper a columnist who triumphantly wrote that the British royal family was detestable, and they were actually German and had no business on the throne. I have heard that comment made many times. It almost brought down the monarchy in WWI.
What almost brought the monarchy down around the time of WWI was the anti-monarchy sentiment throughout all of Europe. Several monarchies fell during that era, nothing to really do with just being German. The British monarchy did change their name to sound less German because Germany was their enemy at the time, but the anti-royal sentiments in Europe at that time we much more complex than simply German = bad. The fall of the German, Russian, and Austria-Hungary monarchies around WWI set a dangerous precedent that riled up anti-royals throughout Europe. A lot of people began to have fundamental questions and doubts about the institution of a monarchy in general.

Quote:
The point of the bloodline analysis is to determine exactly what is their ethnicity.
They are mostly all of very mixed ethnicity because they are all intermixed. Besides, how do you define ethnicity? When it comes to the royals, whose genealogies date back to Charlemagne (and unlike most people, can often actually be traced back that far), how far back do you go when considering ethnicity?

Quote:
In order to get the ethnicity of the Queen Mother you have to consider 8 generations of a Scottish Earls marrying women who were mostly English. Following simple percentages she is shown to be less than 1% Scottish blood.
Why only 8 generations? Why not go further back? Or not even that far? And you realize that DNA doesn't work that way - although we get 50% from each parent, we do not get exactly 25% from each grandparent, or 12.5% from each great grandparent, etc. It's impossible to judge just how much DNA the Queen Mother might have inherited from each ancestor.
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Old 03-15-2021, 01:11 PM
 
Location: USA
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The first question that should have been asked is either "Genetically, what makes a family German?" or "Culturally, is the BRF British?"
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Old 03-18-2021, 07:51 PM
 
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Completely unrelated but also sorta related German is the most common ancestry among Americans. There has always been trickles of German immigrant into the US and colonies, but large waves in the mid to late 1800s.
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