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Russia spans two continents, Europe and Asia and Russians with blond hair and blue eyes, outside of the Baltic states, comprises only a small minority of Russia's 185 distinct ethnic groups. In short your question is based upon an exceedingly faulty premise so any answer to the question will be flawed from the start.
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Originally Posted by Timing2012
Blah blah blah. It still does not answer my question as to why Russia, a part of Asia, doesn't have visible Asian admixture in its citizens.
The operative word is "seems" unfortunately, as I pointed out, the premise is flawed to a fault.
As I pointed out previously, the question only assumes the presence of two "racial" groups, "oriental" Asians and Eastern Europeans which fails to recognize that there are over 185 distinct ethnic groups of various genetic origins. If the question is "How come there are no such admixture between China/Mongolia and Russia?" without looking at, much less acknowledging, any admixture with the hundreds of diverse Asian genetic population and Slavic Russians pretty much dooms from the start.
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I'm not sure why you've gotten so many rude responses.
Speaking for myself... when you give a factual answer that points out the errors to the question and the response is Blah, blah, blah, the followup one shouldn't expect the most felicitous response.
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There's a good book out by Jared Diamond called "Guns, Germs and Steel" that trys to answer questions like this.
Diamond isn't a geneticist writing about human population studies a subject that is sorely lacking on this forum.
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Originally Posted by Priscilla Martin
That's harsh.
Hardly. We can post pictures of the extreme phenotypes present within the Russian population but they won't give us any understanding of the folks who lie in the middle.
In Western Asia and Eastern Europe, there are different degrees of Asian-European admixtures. How come there are no such admixture between China/Mongolia and Russia?
1. Why Were There So Little Asian-Russian Admixture?
2. How come there are no such admixture between China/Mongolia and Russia?
3. How come the Russian stayed blond and blue eyed for so long and the Northern Chinese are black haired and dark eyes?
4. In Western Asia and Eastern Europe, there are different degrees of Asian-European admixtures.
Would you please provide more information to clarify your three questions and statement?
I'll throw this out the, not sure if this helps. Let me know if not and I'll dig deeper.
Populations within the Urals are characterized by high levels of genetic heterogeneity and various degrees of admixture between Europeans and Asians. It has been reported that these groups possess some Asian maternal DNA components. Additional investigations utilizing the autosomal VNTR markers, D1S80 and 3′ApoB. TP53 single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) haplotypes along with Y-chromosomal analyses signal both Asian and European genetic constituents. For example, Y-chromosomal haplogroup N (specifically sub-haplogroups N1c and N1b), believed to be of Asian ancestry is found at high frequencies within the Urals; and its pronounced presence in the Baltic countries (Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia), as well as in the Nordic Peninsula (Finland) and in the Saami of Sweden, argue for an Uralic genetic signature throughout northeastern Europe.
Simchenko YuB. Early ethnogenesis of ethnic groups of the Ural language family from transpolar and circumpolar EurasiaIn Gurvich IS (ed): Ethnogenez narodov severa Moscow: Nauka; 1980. 11–27.27.
Sajantila A, Lahermo P, Anttinen T, et al. Genes and languages in Europe: an analysis of mitochondrial lineages. Genome Res. 1995;5:42–52. [PubMed]
Malyarchuk BA. Differentiation of the mitochondrial subhaplogroup U4 in the populations of Eastern Europe, Ural, and Western Siberia: implication to the genetic history of the Uralic populations. Genetika. 2004;40:1281–1287. [PubMed]
Verbenko DA, Knjazev AN, Mikulich AI, Khusnutdinova EK, Bebyakova NA, Limborska SA. Variability of the 3′APOB minisatellite locus in eastern Slavonic populations. Hum Hered. 2005;60:10–18. [PubMed]
Verbenko DA, Slominsky PA, Spitsyn VA, et al. Polymorphisms at locus D1S80 and other hypervariable regions in the analysis of Eastern European ethnic group relationships. Ann Hum Biol. 2006;33:570–584. [PubMed]
Khrunin A, Verbenko D, Nikitina K, Limborska S. Regional differences in the genetic variability of Finno-Ugric speaking Komi populations. Am J Hum Bio. 2007;19:741–750. [PubMed]
Khrunin AV, Tarskaia LA, Spitsyn VA, Lylova OI, Bebyakova NA, Mikulich AI, Limborska SA. p53 polymorphisms in Russia and Belarus: correlation of the 2-1-1 haplotype frequency with longitude. Mol Genet Genomics. 2005;272:666–672. [PubMed]
Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, et al. The Eurasian heartland: a continental perspective on Y-chromosomal diversity. Proc Natl Acad USA. 2001;98:10244–10249. [PMC free article] [PubMed]
Semino O, Passarino G, Oefner PJ, et al. The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in extant Europeans: A Y chromosome perspective. Science. 2000;290:1155–1159. [PubMed]
Zerjal T, Dashnyam B, Pandya A, et al. Genetic relationships of Asians and Northern Europeans, revealed by Y-chromosomal DNA analysis. Am J Hum Genet. 1997;60:1174–1183. [PMC free article] [PubMed]
Rootsi S, Zhivotovsky LA, Baldovic M, et al. A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from Southeast Asia towards Europe. Eur J Hum Genet. 2007;15:211–405. [PubMed]
Xue Y, Zerjal T, Ban W, et al. Male demography in East Asia: a north–south contrast in human population expansion times. Genetics. 2006;172:2431–2439. [PMC free article] [PubMed]
Guglielmino CR, Piazza A, Menozzi P, Cavalli-Sforza LL. Uralic genes in Europe. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1990;83:57–68. [PubMed]
1. Why Were There So Little Asian-Russian Admixture?
2. How come there are no such admixture between China/Mongolia and Russia?
3. How come the Russian stayed blond and blue eyed for so long and the Northern Chinese are black haired and dark eyes?
4. In Western Asia and Eastern Europe, there are different degrees of Asian-European admixtures.
Would you please provide more information to clarify your three questions and statement?
I'll throw this out the, not sure if this helps. Let me know if not and I'll dig deeper.
Populations within the Urals are characterized by high levels of genetic heterogeneity and various degrees of admixture between Europeans and Asians. It has been reported that these groups possess some Asian maternal DNA components. Additional investigations utilizing the autosomal VNTR markers, D1S80 and 3′ApoB. TP53 single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) haplotypes along with Y-chromosomal analyses signal both Asian and European genetic constituents. For example, Y-chromosomal haplogroup N (specifically sub-haplogroups N1c and N1b), believed to be of Asian ancestry is found at high frequencies within the Urals; and its pronounced presence in the Baltic countries (Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia), as well as in the Nordic Peninsula (Finland) and in the Saami of Sweden, argue for an Uralic genetic signature throughout northeastern Europe.
Simchenko YuB. Early ethnogenesis of ethnic groups of the Ural language family from transpolar and circumpolar EurasiaIn Gurvich IS (ed): Ethnogenez narodov severa Moscow: Nauka; 1980. 11–27.27.
Sajantila A, Lahermo P, Anttinen T, et al. Genes and languages in Europe: an analysis of mitochondrial lineages. Genome Res. 1995;5:42–52. [PubMed]
Malyarchuk BA. Differentiation of the mitochondrial subhaplogroup U4 in the populations of Eastern Europe, Ural, and Western Siberia: implication to the genetic history of the Uralic populations. Genetika. 2004;40:1281–1287. [PubMed]
Verbenko DA, Knjazev AN, Mikulich AI, Khusnutdinova EK, Bebyakova NA, Limborska SA. Variability of the 3′APOB minisatellite locus in eastern Slavonic populations. Hum Hered. 2005;60:10–18. [PubMed]
Verbenko DA, Slominsky PA, Spitsyn VA, et al. Polymorphisms at locus D1S80 and other hypervariable regions in the analysis of Eastern European ethnic group relationships. Ann Hum Biol. 2006;33:570–584. [PubMed]
Khrunin A, Verbenko D, Nikitina K, Limborska S. Regional differences in the genetic variability of Finno-Ugric speaking Komi populations. Am J Hum Bio. 2007;19:741–750. [PubMed]
Khrunin AV, Tarskaia LA, Spitsyn VA, Lylova OI, Bebyakova NA, Mikulich AI, Limborska SA. p53 polymorphisms in Russia and Belarus: correlation of the 2-1-1 haplotype frequency with longitude. Mol Genet Genomics. 2005;272:666–672. [PubMed]
Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, et al. The Eurasian heartland: a continental perspective on Y-chromosomal diversity. Proc Natl Acad USA. 2001;98:10244–10249. [PMC free article] [PubMed]
Semino O, Passarino G, Oefner PJ, et al. The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in extant Europeans: A Y chromosome perspective. Science. 2000;290:1155–1159. [PubMed]
Zerjal T, Dashnyam B, Pandya A, et al. Genetic relationships of Asians and Northern Europeans, revealed by Y-chromosomal DNA analysis. Am J Hum Genet. 1997;60:1174–1183. [PMC free article] [PubMed]
Rootsi S, Zhivotovsky LA, Baldovic M, et al. A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from Southeast Asia towards Europe. Eur J Hum Genet. 2007;15:211–405. [PubMed]
Xue Y, Zerjal T, Ban W, et al. Male demography in East Asia: a north–south contrast in human population expansion times. Genetics. 2006;172:2431–2439. [PMC free article] [PubMed]
Guglielmino CR, Piazza A, Menozzi P, Cavalli-Sforza LL. Uralic genes in Europe. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1990;83:57–68. [PubMed]
All these "haplogroups" do not explain why, for example, Finns ( with supposedly high Asiatic admixture) remain blond and blue-eyed people (dark hair and brown eyes are dominant gene, so if Finns were all that mixed with Asiatic people in conventional sense of it, what happened there, because it defies the law of genetics,) - that's number one, and number two - Russians ( no matter what all those "haplogroups" are showing,) indeed, in real life do not intermarry all that much with Asian population, be that Kazakhs, Turkmens, or what's not. The only exception probably are Mari and other Uralic people, who traditionally lived on Volga river https://www.google.com/search?q=mari...G4abqgHS9oDgAQ
These people often look as close to Russians as it gets, so such unions ( in those regions in particular) are accepted.
Other than that, Russians are usually staying within their own ethnic group.
Yes, those are Kazakhs, not ethnic Russians though.
P.S Sorry, now when I looked closer, I take it back;
One is Kazakh, another one most likely belongs to one of Siberian native people, and the third one is probably a Turkmen or Uzbek.
All these "haplogroups" do not explain why, for example, Finns ( with supposedly high Asiatic admixture) remain blond and blue-eyed people (dark hair and brown eyes are dominant gene, so if Finns were all that mixed with Asiatic people in conventional sense of it, what happened there, because it defies the law of genetics,) - that's number one, and number two - Russians ( no matter what all those "haplogroups" are showing,) indeed, in real life do not intermarry all that much with Asian population, be that Kazakhs, Turkmens, or what's not. The only exception probably are Mari and other Uralic people, who traditionally lived on Volga river https://www.google.com/search?q=mari...G4abqgHS9oDgAQ
These people often look as close to Russians as it gets, so such unions ( in those regions in particular) are accepted.
Other than that, Russians are usually staying within their own ethnic group.
I don't know if researchers have all the answers yet. I know I don't. I'm Native American and just started getting into this a month or so ago as a hobby, seeing where my people originated.
Surprisingly, my real job did take me to Russia, many years ago. I didn't get into the east, the work group I was with spent six weeks total from Moscow to Tbilisi and about everywhere in between. Never gave it much thought at the time because my head wasn't into that, but even in my limited experience their was a lot of variation in appearance. I know one thing, the various ethnic groups over there are very clear on who they do and don't like.
Seems like a lot of research for nothing if haplotyping isn't accurate. I wonder what that says about what we know so far. Maybe I should find another hobby and revisit this in five years.
I was not sure exactly how many ethnic groups exist in the bi-continental country of Russia, but I knew that there were many. Many more than Asian and Caucasian.
Russian Caucasians have many different appearances. Actually, I think the "blond and blue eyed" stereotype is not the most common.
My comments are purely observational, but I have seen more Russians with light hair and dark eyes, than I have with "blond and blue".
The combinations that seem prevalent include brown hair and brown eyes, red hair and browor blue eyes, blue eyes and dark hair with fair skin.
The Asian population lives in another part of Russia. Places such as Sakhalin Island and Siberia seem to have more Asian individuals than Moscow or Vladimir.
Other former Soviet countries have more racially mixed individuals that do Russia. Kazakhstan, a Central Asian former Soviet country has many racially mixed individuals. In fact, I think there are more Asian or mixed race people there then there are Caucasians.
I am still not certain of what an "admixture" is and I have never, before now; heard of a person referenced thus.
The Asian population lives in another part of Russia. Places such as Sakhalin Island and Siberia seem to have more Asian individuals than Moscow or Vladimir.
Here is the problem as I see it, current genetic population studies are rapidly dismantling old concepts (and often racist) concepts of human taxonomy into the waste bin, particularly when we attempt to access genealogical relationships based upon outward physical attributes. Take for example the idea of who is or isn't Asian. From a geological perspective inhabitants of the Asia continent extend from Saudi Arabia to the Sakhalin Island and everything in between. When we talk about admixture (a perfectly valid term) we might be describing genetic variations that date back 10's of thousands of years or yesterday. If we insist, as many on this forum do, to look for genetic markers based upon physical appearance we are missing the point. There is a wonderful wealth of recent genetic studies tracing the genetic origins of the human population and that discussion is far more interesting, not to mention accurate, than most of the discussions that we have here in genealogy forum. It is a fascinating topic.
I don't know if researchers have all the answers yet.
I'm sure they don't. They've discovered certain things recently, but I don't think the true meaning of them is really known or understood. So saying that some "haplogroup" present here and there indicates that this group of people was simply simply mixed somehow with that group of people, because they've "migrated" doesn't simply always add up. As in case with Finns for example. ( Because as I've said their supposedly "Asiatic" admixture didn't result in the kind of look that we'd expect knowing the laws of genetics, and what dominant and recessive genes supposed to reflect.)
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Surprisingly, my real job did take me to Russia, many years ago. I didn't get into the east, the work group I was with spent six weeks total from Moscow to Tbilisi and about everywhere in between. Never gave it much thought at the time because my head wasn't into that, but even in my limited experience their was a lot of variation in appearance.
If you traveled through different regions of Russia ( or better to say through different regions of the former Soviet Union, since you've mentioned Tbilissi, and it's a capital of Georgia,) you'd have seen a lot of variation in appearance not because they were all ethnic Russians, but because you've seen different ethnic groups living there. That is not to say that ethnic Russians themselves don't have a big variation of looks, yet they too have certain limits of what's considered "Russian look" and what's not. Usually when Russians have Asian admixture, they know exactly where it's coming from ( i.e. which one of their great or great-grand parents were of Asian origin.) Something like this ( I just happen to think about this particular person, because he is a well-known Russian producer.
Because in spite of what many Westerners think, the average ethnic Russian doesn't have anything "Asiatic" in his/her look, (EXCEPT may be for the areas with Uralic people, where Russians do mix with them.)
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I know one thing, the various ethnic groups over there are very clear on who they do and don't like.
That's for sure.
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Seems like a lot of research for nothing if haplotyping isn't accurate. I wonder what that says about what we know so far. Maybe I should find another hobby and revisit this in five years.
I don't think that haplogroups are not accurate, I'm simply saying that the true meaning of them ( or what exactly they indicate) is not yet understood, so proceed with your hobby, may be you'll be the one who'll discover their true meaning)))
Last edited by erasure; 09-11-2013 at 12:58 PM..
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