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Old 10-28-2013, 10:27 PM
 
2,241 posts, read 3,305,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubi3 View Post
Three people are used as examples to show that whites have NEVER been pure at all. Your logic is so flawed it relegates your words to the trash heap.
Also I said the white race has never been pure in the sense that those that view the idea of pure races as a fact will find that the history of the globe contradicts that. The world has been mixed since ancient times.

 
Old 10-28-2013, 10:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
The 'races' are cultural, not some large divide. We've as humans made a difference but on the genetic level its all visible traits. None of them make us less human. We are all 'mutts' genetically, and there is no need to reject any ancestry because it makes you different. You were the same person before you knew and just added a small addition to your identity.

And I don't see how someone who has a small bit of African in them can claim to be other than who they are anyway. I have a LOT of scots in me, and have even been told I look scots, but would never claim that I was a Scot... don't think the distant relatives across the pond would appreciate that. But I can claim the heritage. They are not the same thing.
Right that's exactly what I said. There has been a concept of multiracial whiteness for a long time now. Patrick Francis Healy is one example and even before his generation and even eons before such a concept existed.

Genetically, scientifically, and biologically btw however, "race" is a fallacy. 2 individuals of different racial groups are genetically more related to each other than to those within their race. There is more genetic difference and diversity within "race groups" than between different race groups.

You will find more genetic linkages with someone of a different race than someone of your own race etc.

Race essentially is bull****.

Also no one can even pinpoint where one race begins or where one ends.
 
Old 10-28-2013, 10:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Bear in mind that when Gates did a patrolineal DNA test he turned out to be very white, but when he added a matrinileal his African ancestry increased.

Most Transatlantic blacks get their white ancestry from the patrilineal side as white men had access to black and mulatto women (free and slave) while those men had scant access to white women until recently.

People have to be careful about which tests that they do and those with significant mixed ancestry need to be especially so if they desire an "accurate" result.
One DNA study showed that more than 40% of the European ancestry found in African Americans comes from European women.

As for Dr. Henry Louis "Skip" Gates Jr, his matrilineal lineage ancestor goes back to Irish women lol.

Dr Gates roots are from Virginia (from his father for sure) and there were many Irish indentured servants and Irish slaves that had loving consensual relationships with African male indentured servants and African male slaves. There were also many white slaves as well.

Virginia had a high rate of miscegenational race mixing.
 
Old 10-28-2013, 10:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprite97 View Post
You know, I've always thought that Jewish, Italian, Porteguese, Greek, Spanish, and Arab people had a significant amount of African blood, especially Jews and Greeks.
They do. The term Arab is more cultural and linguistic. And all the cultures and groups you mentioned had African slaves going back to ancient times through the Arab slave trade and various empires that existed.

In fact the Arabs were the progenitors of the transatlantic slave trade that Europeams would engage in and Arabs helped out the Europeans.

The Arab slave trade was very harsh and lasted longer than the Transatlantic and Middle passage slave trades. In fact slavery in Arabic speaking and cultural influenced nations is still going on to this day.
 
Old 10-28-2013, 10:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
I understand that some blacks would rather ignore white ancestry and some whites would not want black ancestry either. But just imagine how much better it would be if both could accept that they are not 'pure' (nobody is) and how we all might relate a lot better that way.

You are who you are. The bits and pieces that made you were there before. Your present life in the end is much more important than what happened a long time ago.
The whole world is mixed in varying degrees and yet it's still racist as **** unfortunately. Ultimately it's human nature. If we transcended or overcame these artificial race barriers, we'd still find something else to argue about.

I think class and economics is the big elephant in all issues in the room. Race is a distraction from the bigger and more important issues at hand.
 
Old 10-28-2013, 10:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The foundation of the pressure to pass as white is obvious, and certainly enough people managed to do so successfully that there are some folks who identify as white and have no idea that they have any African ancestors at all. However, that does not mean that there are a large number of whites who have hidden African ancestry. In the 23AndMe database it is 3 to 4% and the admixture is 0.5 to 0.75%, correspondig to an ancestor who lived about 200 years ago.

When people who identify as white are found to be related to people who identify as black, it is much more likely that the common ancestor will be European rather than African. Of course, the 23AndMe database is not likely to be representative of the entire population, but I think it is unlikely that we will find that the majority of the current US population that identifies as white will have hidden African ancestry.

Where do you get the idea that whites "demand" that blacks "own up to" having white ancestors and "pretend" that the number of whites with African ancestors is small? There are threads here exploring attitudes of both blacks with European ancestors and whites with African ancestors acknowledging their minority contribution ancestors. The fact is that the majority of African Americans have some European ancestors but a minority of white Americans will have African ancestors.

The consensus in both of the threads seems to me to be that we should acknowledge all of our ancestors, realizing that some of them, regardless of color, may not be nice folks we would want to socialize with, for example my ancestor who murdered his son in law.




As far as I know, the tests that report admixture percentages are autosomal tests. That gives a sample of the entire genome, not just Y DNA or mitichondrial DNA. However, the commercial DNA companies do not test the entire genome. That means that a particular ancestor might not have passed down a gene that the companies test for to assign DNA to a particular geographical area. Indeed, a particular ancestor's DNA might have dropped out of his descendants totally before it got to you. So finding certain alleles present helps to place some (but not all) of your ancestors in a particular geographic location, but the absence of detected genes from a certain area does not completely exclude an ancestor from a particular area.
In addition it gets tricky because for the autosomnal 23andme DNA testing, only males get all of what they are. Males are XY chromosomes. Females are XX. So females only get their female genetic ancestry and don't get their Y Or male genetic information which is important with names and tracking down the paternal and patrilineal lines. In addition if a female has a full blooded male sibling, that can be tricky because siblings can report different genetic ancestral proportions and one lineage or genetic ancestry could show up in one's genetic report but could be lacking or non existent in another's genetic siblings report even though all have the same 2 exact biological parents.

On a sidenote though however one conspiracy out there is that how do we know some grumpy old fat man is not sitting behind the keyboard and just experimenting and stroking out numbers and percentages and randomly assigning different genetic fake proportions and fake numbers and fake bogus percentages and and lying leaving people astray and putting in and punching into the computer and labs and tests whatever they want to or would like to depending on the time and day lol lolol. For all we know it all could be one big hoax lol. IJS

Last edited by MelismaticEchoes; 10-28-2013 at 11:13 PM..
 
Old 10-29-2013, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,974 posts, read 40,928,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
In addition it gets tricky because for the autosomnal 23andme DNA testing, only males get all of what they are. Males are XY chromosomes. Females are XX. So females only get their female genetic ancestry and don't get their Y Or male genetic information which is important with names and tracking down the paternal and patrilineal lines. In addition if a female has a full blooded male sibling, that can be tricky because siblings can report different genetic ancestral proportions and one lineage or genetic ancestry could show up in one's genetic report but could be lacking or non existent in another's genetic siblings report even though all have the same 2 exact biological parents.

On a sidenote though however one conspiracy out there is that how do we know some grumpy old fat man is not sitting behind the keyboard and just experimenting and stroking out numbers and percentages and randomly assigning different genetic fake proportions and fake numbers and fake bogus percentages and and lying leaving people astray lolol. For all we know it all could be one big hoax lol. IJS
No, this is not correct.

It is true that women do not have a Y chromosome, but half of a female's autosomal DNA comes from her father. So if a woman has her autosomal DNA tested she can find relatives from her father's side, too. That is the whole point of using it for genealogical purposes.

For example, I have a match with a male first cousin once removed on my father's side at 23AndMe. We share 17 segments on 11 chromosomes. I have found no shared ancestors between my parents, and I have a tree going back quite a while. So I know all of those shared segments came from my father.

Also since that cousin is male and shares my father's surname, I know his Y chromosome is the same as my father's. My father's father and my cousin's father were brothers. So even if my brother had not already had his Y DNA tested I could get that info from my cousin.

It is true that my brother and I would not have identical DNA profiles at 23AndMe. If we did, we'd be identical twins, and either I would be a he or he would be a she! But he would also match with our cousin, though probably not at sites identical to mine, and that would tell us more about our father, who is deceased and not available for testing.

But - if we had a cousin on our mother's side tested, that would give us info about our mother's contributions to each of us, although she is also deceased. I know my mother's mitochondrial DNA haplotype, of course, because it is the same as mine.

The more people who test, and the more closely they are related to us, the more we would find out about our parents.

Of course, an even bigger source of monkey business, so to speak, rather than the Wiz behind the screen, is the potential for "non-paternal events"!

Some of the matches for which we have been able to find the most recent common ancestor at 23AndMe have been seven to ten generations back. I find that interesting and suspect it is a commentary on the fidelity of at least some of my ancestors.

As far as it being a hoax, the fact that I knew immediately where the cousin to whom I matched fit in my tree pretty much proves that it works. I also have a known third cousin who matched to me.

And what would be the point of faking it, anyway? The truth is fascinating!
 
Old 10-29-2013, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,166,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post
One DNA study showed that more than 40% of the European ancestry found in African Americans comes from European women.

As for Dr. Henry Louis "Skip" Gates Jr, his matrilineal lineage ancestor goes back to Irish women lol.

Dr Gates roots are from Virginia (from his father for sure) and there were many Irish indentured servants and Irish slaves that had loving consensual relationships with African male indentured servants and African male slaves. There were also many white slaves as well.

Virginia had a high rate of miscegenational race mixing.
During the 1600's, the mixing of African and European 'unfree' labor (which was the common word used for all forms) was neither pushed nor forbidden. It wasn't until later when race was used to divide the poor who had nearly removed the state government during a joint revolt of black and white laborors.

On the old geneology series on pbs there was a black woman who was astonished to discover she had no slaves in her ancestry. The earliest was a white indentured woman who gave birth to a black servants child and as things went by the mother, the child was freed with her. She was really astonished.
 
Old 10-29-2013, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,974 posts, read 40,928,564 times
Reputation: 44899
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Bear in mind that when Gates did a patrolineal DNA test he turned out to be very white, but when he added a matrinileal his African ancestry increased.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelismaticEchoes View Post

As for Dr. Henry Louis "Skip" Gates Jr, his matrilineal lineage ancestor goes back to Irish women lol.

Dr Gates roots are from Virginia (from his father for sure) and there were many Irish indentured servants and Irish slaves that had loving consensual relationships with African male indentured servants and African male slaves. There were also many white slaves as well.
My heavily Irish DH matches to Dr. Gates at 23AndMe!
 
Old 10-29-2013, 03:24 AM
 
3,244 posts, read 5,219,754 times
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The same debate exists in Europe, as evidenced by this latest controversy:
DNA test confirms that Bulgarian woman IS the natural mother of blonde haired Maria | Mail Online
Gypsies are presumed to be south Asian, descendants of ethnic tribes from India who migrated through the Middle East to Europe.
Yet, this blonde/blue-eyed child has dark-haired/skinned parents. The tiny mother would probably be described as Indian (the irony!) in South America. Her oldest daughter & another boy are very similar to the young girl in question. I draw no conclusions about the source of the red hair on the babe-in-arms!
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