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Not sure about that. large areas of what is now lowland Scotland once belonged in the Angle kingdom of Northumbria.
you only have to take a glance at lowland Scots surnames to see that many of them do not have the Mc or Mac and they also spoke a Germanic language.
We all know that many of them migrated to the province of Ulster.
The Ulster migration came later, in the 1600's, creating what are refered to as the 'Ulster Irish' and in the US, the scots irish.
I don't remember names because I looked it up a long time ago, but may have been related to one of the men who founded Londonderry. A few years later they came to North Carolina as very early migrants. The name was with a Mac something but I don't remember it, changed to Houston or one of the variations of spelling when they settled.
The Ulster migration came later, in the 1600's, creating what are refered to as the 'Ulster Irish' and in the US, the scots irish.
I don't remember names because I looked it up a long time ago, but may have been related to one of the men who founded Londonderry. A few years later they came to North Carolina as very early migrants. The name was with a Mac something but I don't remember it, changed to Houston or one of the variations of spelling when they settled.
Their immigration to North America continued for a fairly long period. These colonists had been induced to come to Ireland as settlers by those Undertakers (yes, that was the term) who received large grants of land in Ireland from the English crown with the proviso that they extirpate any Irish Catholics living on their grant and then "plant" it with Protestants brought from the England and Scotland.
My cousins' ancestors fought in the seige of Londonderry, by the way.
These new arrivals found great land, for the most part, but were truly riled to find that many of the legal disabilities which were used to keep Catholics out of public life as much as possible, also applied to them because, though Protestants - they were not the right kind of Protestants.
After a couple of generations many of the Scots-Irish were thoroughly fed up with this discrimination and decamped for the thirteen North American colonies. Their ill feelings did not die in the thirteen colonies and the Scots-Irish proved quite ready to fight against the English crown.
My own Scots-Irish ancestors did not arrive in Canada until the middle of the 19th century. However, in a short scrawled short family history made by one of the children later in life, he remarked that the family had left Ireland because of the onerous exactions of their landlord. These were constantly increasing rents, and having him constantly sending in Anglican clergy to try to proselytize them. They were Free Church/Presbyterians.
Actually if your scots or scots irish your not mostly anglosaxon. Your mostly celt. The saxon's and their companions pushed the celts to the north of the British Isles. You are more likely to have Dane/viking ancestry since they settled the outer areas and inter mixed. I never have felt the acroinum fit since its this huge ungeneralized lump and I don't want to be part of a lump.
I see what you are saying. I was talking about being culturally Anglo-Saxon. The language and habits of lowland Scotland are perhaps the most conservatively Anglo-Saxon in language and culture, having the least influence from the cultural and linguistic impact of the Norman invasion in 1066. See their dialect, Lallans ('lowlands') for starters; I only started to understand it after conflating my knowledge of pre-1066 English and modern Norwegian :-)
I agree that the southern Scots, the population from which the Ulster Scots/Scot-Irish were taken, are genetically a mix of peoples including Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and indigenous Britons, but I would not describe them as Celtic in a genetic sense since there is no Celtic gene. In fact, the insular Celts are a largely distinct genetic population from the continental Celts whose language and culture they adopted.
The insular Celts have strong genetic links to the peoples of Europe's Atlantic seaboard from the NW down to Portugal and Spain, people who have been part of a variety of cultures including, but certainly not limited to, Celtic culture. Meanwhile, most descendants of the ur-kultur of the Celts (the La Tene and Hallstatt cultures centered on a region stretching from the Alps to northern France and east to Bohemia) are today Germans, Frenchmen, and Slavs.
.....The insular Celts have strong genetic links to the peoples of Europe's Atlantic seaboard from the NW down to Portugal and Spain, people who have been part of a variety of cultures including, but certainly not limited to, Celtic culture. Meanwhile, most descendants of the ur-kultur of the Celts (the La Tene and Hallstatt cultures centered on a region stretching from the Alps to northern France and east to Bohemia) are today Germans, Frenchmen, and Slavs.
I had my DNA profile done a few years ago, about fifty markers as I recall. The closest matches are always from the west coast of Ireland (not a surprise) and northern Portugal and Galicia.
Their immigration to North America continued for a fairly long period. These colonists had been induced to come to Ireland as settlers by those Undertakers (yes, that was the term) who received large grants of land in Ireland from the English crown with the proviso that they extirpate any Irish Catholics living on their grant and then "plant" it with Protestants brought from the England and Scotland.
My cousins' ancestors fought in the seige of Londonderry, by the way.
These new arrivals found great land, for the most part, but were truly riled to find that many of the legal disabilities which were used to keep Catholics out of public life as much as possible, also applied to them because, though Protestants - they were not the right kind of Protestants.
After a couple of generations many of the Scots-Irish were thoroughly fed up with this discrimination and decamped for the thirteen North American colonies. Their ill feelings did not die in the thirteen colonies and the Scots-Irish proved quite ready to fight against the English crown.
My own Scots-Irish ancestors did not arrive in Canada until the middle of the 19th century. However, in a short scrawled short family history made by one of the children later in life, he remarked that the family had left Ireland because of the onerous exactions of their landlord. These were constantly increasing rents, and having him constantly sending in Anglican clergy to try to proselytize them. They were Free Church/Presbyterians.
I have scots and scots irish sprinkled from the 1600's on. One is intreging, early on on my father's side. She was born in Canada. Her father was born in Scotland. I would love to find out how they ended up in Canada. Her husband came to Canada from Scotland and they married, went back to Scotland, and then to one of the midland north atlantic states. They like my mom's family ended up in the W. Virginia/Tennessee/Kentucky area. I sure would like to find the record of how they got there. I do have relatives who did a geneology on his side and am going to contact her.
And yes, that was one of the things which some don't get today. The High English church, the one you see the cathedrials for, was the property of gentry. For the lower classes there was the low church, which came here as the Episcopal church, with simplified rites. But they disapproved as much or more of the other prodestent sects. If the Scotch Irish were lower church they might not have faced the restriction, but it was about central control of power. You did not have a position with 'rights' unless you were high church.
The more I read about the settlements betwen the 1600's and the 1700's, when I see some names but would like more, it strikes me that there were two ways to immigrate. One was to pay your way. One was to sign an indenture. The vast majority of people who arrived them came under indenture. I wish I knew how to look that sort of thing up. It's not one of the things they tell you in history books.
My great grandfathers second wife's family immigrated probably during the famine or a bit earlier. That would be a great great grandmother so they would be great great great grandparents They came directly from Scotland too. His first wife's family came from Ulster. Given the feelings about Catholics in Iowa when my mom was a kid I somehow doubt he'd marry into a Catholic family.
Lots of scots in me I guess, including my dad's grandfather who was also from the Ulster region. I'm sure given his family's fierce Babtist leanings there would be no Catholics in the family line. She was a McLaughlin.
Makes me want to have LOTS of money so I could travel there and see the place for myself and see what details I could dig up.
I have scots and scots irish sprinkled from the 1600's on. One is intreging, early on on my father's side. She was born in Canada. Her father was born in Scotland. I would love to find out how they ended up in Canada. Her husband came to Canada from Scotland and they married, went back to Scotland, and then to one of the midland north atlantic states. They like my mom's family ended up in the W. Virginia/Tennessee/Kentucky area. I sure would like to find the record of how they got there. I do have relatives who did a geneology on his side and am going to contact her.
And yes, that was one of the things which some don't get today. The High English church, the one you see the cathedrials for, was the property of gentry. For the lower classes there was the low church, which came here as the Episcopal church, with simplified rites. But they disapproved as much or more of the other prodestent sects. If the Scotch Irish were lower church they might not have faced the restriction, but it was about central control of power. You did not have a position with 'rights' unless you were high church.
The more I read about the settlements betwen the 1600's and the 1700's, when I see some names but would like more, it strikes me that there were two ways to immigrate. One was to pay your way. One was to sign an indenture. The vast majority of people who arrived them came under indenture. I wish I knew how to look that sort of thing up. It's not one of the things they tell you in history books.
My great grandfathers second wife's family immigrated probably during the famine or a bit earlier. That would be a great great grandmother so they would be great great great grandparents They came directly from Scotland too. His first wife's family came from Ulster. Given the feelings about Catholics in Iowa when my mom was a kid I somehow doubt he'd marry into a Catholic family.
Lots of scots in me I guess, including my dad's grandfather who was also from the Ulster region. I'm sure given his family's fierce Babtist leanings there would be no Catholics in the family line. She was a McLaughlin.
Makes me want to have LOTS of money so I could travel there and see the place for myself and see what details I could dig up.
Good post, Nightbird.
Interesting about the church role in Ulster, the Scots who came to Ulster during the plantation settlement were Presbyterians. The English settlers (who by now are lumped into the Scots-Irish identity) were Church of England or one of the dissenter churches ie, Methodist.
My father was brought up as a member of the Church of Ireland (Anglican) even though he was mainly of Scots descent.
One thing i will disagree on slightly, Even back in the 1700'S i'm sure there would have been Protestants marrying Catholics, not on a great scale but I'm sure there would have been some.
Today is very different, I'm a product of a mixed and happy marriage between a Irish Protestant father and a Irish Catholic mother. I hope one day you will have the chance to visit Ulster, its such a beautiful part of Ireland, especially County Fermanagh, my Birth place.
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