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Old 03-26-2018, 11:11 AM
bg7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
Jewish people tend to be very endogamous, which means they are actually the most genetically unique populations in Europe.
More genetically unique than the Sami of Finland??
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
More genetically unique than the Sami of Finland??
I couldn't say - I was basing my comment on population charts such as the one below, this one is from AncestryDNA. The closer the dots, the more genetically similar they are - note how the European Jewish (Ashkenazi) dots are furthest away from any other group (there are a few outlier dots of West and East European grouped with it but I believe these are people who didn't know they had Jewish ancestry). That means that of AncestryDNA's European samples, the Jewish are the most genetically different or distinct from others. This chart does not distinguish the Sami of Finland (and I have no idea whether AncestryDNA's samples even include the Sami or not) - but Finland/NW Russia on the whole show one large grouping most similar to Eastern European, and a smaller group set further away from all the other populations (though not as far as Jewish).

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Old 03-26-2018, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
I couldn't say - I was basing my comment on population charts such as the one below, this one is from AncestryDNA. The closer the dots, the more genetically similar they are - note how the European Jewish (Ashkenazi) dots are furthest away from any other group (there are a few outlier dots of West and East European grouped with it but I believe these are people who didn't know they had Jewish ancestry). That means that of AncestryDNA's European samples, the Jewish are the most genetically different or distinct from others. This chart does not distinguish the Sami of Finland (and I have no idea whether AncestryDNA's samples even include the Sami or not) - but Finland/NW Russia on the whole show one large grouping most similar to Eastern European, and a smaller group set further away from all the other populations (though not as far as Jewish).
Thanks for posting this, it is very interesting. The far bottom cluster of Italy/Greece dots looks rather distinct as well.
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Old 03-26-2018, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Thanks for posting this, it is very interesting. The far bottom cluster of Italy/Greece dots looks rather distinct as well.
Yes, that could be the difference in North Italy/Greece (larger group) versus South Italy (smaller group), but I can't be totally certain of that. Alternatively, the smaller group may be Sardinian? Shame they don't include more details - although looking back at the white paper it does say this about the chart:

"Figure 3.3: PCA Analysis on European Panel Candidates. Scatterplot of the first two components from a Principal Components Analysis (PCA) of candidate European samples for the AncestryDNA reference panel. Visual inspection of PCA is useful for numerous aspects of data QC. First, it can be used to identify individual outliers, such as the three Italy/Greece samples (maroon) that appear in the middle of the Eastern European (red) cluster. It can also be useful for identifying poor sample grouping. We originally specified our Adygei samples (light green cluster in the middle of the plot) as part of the Finland/Northwest Russia region (larger light green group in the upper right), but it is clear from the plot that they would be more appropriately grouped with another region. Finally, it can reveal regions where there is limited genetic separation and clusters overlap (e.g. Ireland and Great Britain), and regions that can be further subdivided (e.g. Italy/Greece is clearly composed of two sub-groups)."

So they make note of the fact that there's two separate Italy/Greece groups, but don't explain the difference. They also note that the smaller Finland/NW Russia group is Adygei - I assume they mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people - which might be better grouped in Caucasus.
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Old 03-26-2018, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
Yes, that could be the difference in North Italy/Greece (larger group) versus South Italy (smaller group), but I can't be totally certain of that. Alternatively, the smaller group may be Sardinian? Shame they don't include more details - although looking back at the white paper it does say this about the chart:

"Figure 3.3: PCA Analysis on European Panel Candidates. Scatterplot of the first two components from a Principal Components Analysis (PCA) of candidate European samples for the AncestryDNA reference panel. Visual inspection of PCA is useful for numerous aspects of data QC. First, it can be used to identify individual outliers, such as the three Italy/Greece samples (maroon) that appear in the middle of the Eastern European (red) cluster. It can also be useful for identifying poor sample grouping. We originally specified our Adygei samples (light green cluster in the middle of the plot) as part of the Finland/Northwest Russia region (larger light green group in the upper right), but it is clear from the plot that they would be more appropriately grouped with another region. Finally, it can reveal regions where there is limited genetic separation and clusters overlap (e.g. Ireland and Great Britain), and regions that can be further subdivided (e.g. Italy/Greece is clearly composed of two sub-groups)."

So they make note of the fact that there's two separate Italy/Greece groups, but don't explain the difference. They also note that the smaller Finland/NW Russia group is Adygei - I assume they mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people - which might be better grouped in Caucasus.
- Sardinia is a pretty good guess. I would think if the difference was Greece vs. Italy, they would simply divide the groups for reporting purposes.

- LOL at the comment about Ireland and GB. My family is about 7 tests in at this point and we have a running joke about what in the world Ancestry.com considers Irish, the Kennedys? Colm Meaney? Our family tree has a large number of ancestors from Ireland, and yet all of us register barely a trace of Irish.

Considering time and place (18th century from the Northern part of Ireland to the Appalachian frontier) it is possible these folks were Scots-Irish or Anglo-Irish and cluster closer to GB on Ancestry's test.

- I know the Adyghe from GEDmatch. For some reason, one of the tests there (can't remember of the top of my head) likes to assign me that ethnicity in Oracle. Higher than average Caucasus numbers are the likely culprit.........maybe from my Ashkenazi Jewish ancestor?
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Old 03-26-2018, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
- Sardinia is a pretty good guess. I would think if the difference was Greece vs. Italy, they would simply divide the groups for reporting purposes.

- LOL at the comment about Ireland and GB. My family is about 7 tests in at this point and we have a running joke about what in the world Ancestry.com considers Irish, the Kennedys? Colm Meaney? Our family tree has a large number of ancestors from Ireland, and yet all of us register barely a trace of Irish.

Considering time and place (18th century from the Northern part of Ireland to the Appalachian frontier) it is possible these folks were Scots-Irish or Anglo-Irish and cluster closer to GB on Ancestry's test.
Yes, that sounds like Scots-Irish so it wouldn't be surprising to get results in GB instead of Ireland. It was the same for me - I have a number of Scots-Irish branches of my tree, none that are "truly" Irish, and get less than 1% Irish with AncestryDNA, and most other companies. Of course, there is significant overlap between Ireland and Great Britain, so it's also possible for Irish to get results in Great Britain but not in Ireland, but for me, the results are consistent with my tree. Also note that the category of Great Britain on Ancestry includes Ireland too. If you look at the details it says:

Great Britain
Primarily located in: England, Scotland, Wales
Also found in: Ireland, France, Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, Italy

My husband is British - half Irish by ancestry, half British (mostly English, one Scottish branch), I'm trying to get him to take the test because I'm curious to see a British native's results.
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Old 04-02-2018, 05:39 PM
 
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I find ancestry DNA's results increasingly dubious - whether it's their testing, algorithms or mapping that's at fault, I'm not sure but my mother and I both took their DNA test and got crazy results. Firstly, her grandfather (my gg) was Italian and her great grandfather (my ggg) was Ashkenazi.

She came up as 16% Southern European (she should be more like 25% but whatever) and ZERO % Ashkenazi. Oh dear. Where did grandpa go?

I came up as ZERO % Southern European (despite my own mother being 16%? and I'm also Italian on my father's side!) and 1% Asheknazi. But how am I... 1% Ashkenazi when my mother and father are both zero? I put it down to the margin of error.

Eureka: Went to GedMatch and did the JTest: I come up as 5.54% Ashkenazi and 16% Southern European - which is exactly what I should be. Ancestry needs a refit. I see their commercials: "I thought I was Italian - but I'm not!" And I'm yelling at the TV: "Go to GedMatch, dude!"
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skauthen View Post
I find ancestry DNA's results increasingly dubious - whether it's their testing, algorithms or mapping that's at fault, I'm not sure but my mother and I both took their DNA test and got crazy results. Firstly, her grandfather (my gg) was Italian and her great grandfather (my ggg) was Ashkenazi.

She came up as 16% Southern European (she should be more like 25% but whatever) and ZERO % Ashkenazi. Oh dear. Where did grandpa go?
We inherit 50% from each parent, but we do not inherit exactly 25% from each grandparent, or exactly 12.5% from each great grandparent, etc. It's entirely possible your mother simply inherited only 16% from her Italian grandfather. I only inherited about 19% from my paternal grandfather, and I know that for sure because we've both tested, I'm not even basing that on the ethnicity reports. That means I got about 31% from my Italian paternal grandmother, and guess what? That's exactly the amount AncestryDNA reports for my Europe South results.

Your mother should have inherited something from her great grandfather, but maybe it just wasn't enough for the ethnicity to pick up on, maybe he wasn't 100% Ashkenazi.

Ultimately, the ethnicity report is just an estimate, and there is a margin of error - the same is true for any DNA company and their accuracy varies depending on the individual. I know it's probably not what you want to hear but your mother's results don't seem extremely inaccurate with the understanding it's an estimate.

Quote:
I came up as ZERO % Southern European (despite my own mother being 16%?
Yep, recombination is random. Getting 50% of your DNA from your mother doesn't mean you'll get exactly half of each of her ethnicities. The 50% you got from her could theoretically include that entire 16%, or not much at all, which may be not enough for the ethnicity report to pick up on.

Quote:
and I'm also Italian on my father's side!)
How much?

Quote:
and 1% Asheknazi. But how am I... 1% Ashkenazi when my mother and father are both zero? I put it down to the margin of error.
Yes, particularly with a mere 1%, that is well within a margin of error.

Quote:
Eureka: Went to GedMatch and did the JTest: I come up as 5.54% Ashkenazi
Sadly, that doesn't mean anything. Jtest tends to report low amounts of Ashkenazi for pretty much everyone of European descent. I have no known Ashkenazi ancestry but I get 5.17% in Ashkenazi on Jtest. Have you uploaded to FamilyTreeDNA and MyHeritage? Those will also give you a second opinion and they have more Jewish populations than just Ashkenazi, so maybe they will be better at identifying it.

Quote:
and 16% Southern European - which is exactly what I should be.
In Jtest? They don't have a category for Southern European - they have West Mediterranean and East Mediterranean though, if that's what you mean? Unfortunately, this doesn't necessarily mean much either - my mom has no Southern European ancestry at all yet she gets 11.44% West Med and 1.49% East Med in Jtest.

Great that you found an admixture that suits your background, but that doesn't mean it's more accurate than AncestryDNA for everyone. It's just not that simple.

Quote:
Ancestry needs a refit. I see their commercials: "I thought I was Italian - but I'm not!" And I'm yelling at the TV: "Go to GedMatch, dude!"
I disagree. Gedmatch isn't necessarily more accurate and for me personally, AncestryDNA was more accurate than any of Gedmatch's admixture calculators.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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If you stuck a pin in the English channel, and drew a circle with a 500 mile radius, you would pick up just about all of my known ancestors. If you check out the population chart above in this thread, you can see the three major Ancestry.com groups from this area, GB, Euro West, and Ire/Sco/Wales, are all very closely clustered.

So for me, Ancestry.com is of limited help, as my "North Sea Soup" ancestry means I am admixed from groups that are already pretty admixed with each other. Ancestry.com did successfully find my previously unknown Jewish heritage, and has assigned "Iberian" in 10%+ ranges to relatives on both sides of my mom's family....which may or may not be accurate as there a few holes in the family tree (not Native Americans as we thought, but from where?)

GEDmatch + Oracle is of more use to me at this point. What I use it for is to detect what I call "pull" meaning Oracle's attempt to explain the heritage of a person that is mostly from one area, but with a chunk of DNA from somewhere else.

For example: Here is my Eurogenes K13 Oracle results.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 43.09
2 Baltic 21.20
3 West_Med 14.42
4 East_Med 10.38
5 West_Asian 6.17
6 Red_Sea 3.01
7 South_Asian 1.07

Mostly a "North Sea Soup" mix, but the East_Med, West Asian, and Red Sea, groups are higher than what should be expected, and thus "pull me" south and east in Oracle as follows:

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Ashkenazi + Norwegian + Southwest_English + Southwest_English @ 1.424326
2 Ashkenazi + Norwegian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 1.444574
3 Ashkenazi + North_Dutch + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 1.469512
4 Ashkenazi + Irish + North_Dutch + Southwest_English @ 1.540131
5 Ashkenazi + Irish + Norwegian + Southwest_English @ 1.586133
6 Ashkenazi + Danish + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 1.599285
7 Ashkenazi + Danish + Irish + Southwest_English @ 1.644573
8 Ashkenazi + Norwegian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 1.676659
9 Ashkenazi + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 1.681730
10 Ashkenazi + North_Dutch + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 1.689869
11 Danish + North_Dutch + Southeast_English + West_Sicilian @ 1.715457
12 Ashkenazi + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + Swedish @ 1.719342
13 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Southeast_English + West_Sicilian @ 1.738120
14 Ashkenazi + North_Dutch + Southwest_English + Southwest_English @ 1.751836
15 Ashkenazi + Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 1.766996
16 Ashkenazi + Norwegian + Southeast_English + Southwest_English @ 1.774882
17 Ashkenazi + North_Dutch + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 1.782029
18 Ashkenazi + Irish + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 1.786462
19 Danish + Danish + South_Dutch + Tuscan @ 1.808869
20 Danish + Danish + Southeast_English + West_Sicilian @ 1.812017

So, three North Sea ethnic groups + one either Jewish or Italian group is Oracle's best guess. In this case, the Ashkenazi assignment is correct, but other tests show the same "pull" to the south and east will chose something Balkan, Greek, or occasionally Caucasus, depends on which test I use. I won't post another, but the same happens to my grandmother, only she is "pulled" west and south, normally towards Spanish populations, but French Basque is a popular choice. Ancestry says she is 11% Iberian.....so in the end Ancestry is picking up pretty much the same thing. Now to find that ancestor.............
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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BTW, is there a way to switch from Least Squares Method to Mixed Mode Sharing in Oracle on GEDmatch? Or is that a Tier 1 utility? Thanks.
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