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Old 04-05-2018, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
My mom's entire family was from Matzgra, Greece. Her siblings & her were all first-generation American born. These are my uncle's results for 4 populations:


Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Albanian_Albania + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Cypriot_Cyprus + Kosovar_Kosovo @ 2.107942
2 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Thessaloniki + Kosovar_Kosovo @ 2.122251
3 Albanian_Albania + Cypriot_Cyprus + Kosovar_Kosovo + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 2.174619
4 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Greece + Kosovar_Kosovo @ 2.176186
5 Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Thessaloniki + Kosovar_Kosovo + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 2.183985
6 Albanian_Albania + Albanian_Albania + Cypriot_Cyprus + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 2.221673
7 Albanian_Albania + Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Thessaloniki + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 2.227580
8 Albanian_Albania + Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Greece + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 2.227750
9 Albanian_Albania + Cypriot_Cyprus + German_Germany + Greek_Greece @ 2.228833
10 Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Greece + Kosovar_Kosovo + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 2.231224
11 Albanian_Albania + Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Thessaloniki + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 2.237496
12 Cypriot_Cyprus + German_Germany + Greek_Greece + Greek_Greece @ 2.239211
13 Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Greece + Greek_Thessaloniki + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 2.244385
14 Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Greece + Greek_Thessaloniki + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 2.246933
15 Albanian_Albania + Albanian_Albania + Cypriot_Cyprus + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 2.247556
16 Cypriot_Cyprus + German_Germany + Greek_Thessaloniki + Greek_Greece @ 2.248705
17 Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Athens + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 2.249134
18 Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Greece + Italian_Tuscany + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 2.252217
19 Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Thessaloniki + Greek_Thessaloniki + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 2.252232
20 Cypriot_Cyprus + Greek_Thessaloniki + Greek_Thessaloniki + Montenegrian_Montenegro @ 2.252280

... They had a grandfather who never immigrated; 6'4" tall, with blonde hair & blue eyes ...
Where in Greece is that? Google is no help, it does not recognize the place name in Latin script. One of my wife's great-grandparents was a blond haired/grey eyed Greek as well.
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,619,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFP View Post
I doubt Gedmatch would kick out these sort of estimates for her but keep us updated. Those are the sort of results you see for people that are from relatively isolated, poverty stricken populations that did little trading.
7 of 8 of my wife's great-grandparents were born on a small, poor, island in the Eastern Aegean, very close to Asia Minor, and part of the Ottoman Empire until after WWI (the other ancestor came from the next island over.) The island did not have power or running water until the 1960s, and fresh water is still collected on rooftops, and shipped in big bladders by ferries in times of extreme need. My research indicates that the island was not repopulated until the mid-19th century after steam ships ended centuries of piracy. I think the more recent settlement SHOULD show a mixture of people from various other Greek islands, and maybe some places on the mainland......but again, it is said that 12 families founded the current population, everyone is related to everyone else (even my wife's parents) so there could be a very strong founder effect from a limited population as well.

All that said, Oracle is not about her heritage, it will be matching her to sample populations of Greeks that are more likely to reflect the cosmopolitan trading heritage you mention.
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:20 PM
 
564 posts, read 418,995 times
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British Isles.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 28.91
2 NorthEastEuropean 26.4
3 Steppe 22.14
4 Caucasian 21.04
5 Indian 0.81
6 SouthEastAsian 0.49
7 NearEast 0.11
8 Ancestor 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Scottish (Dumfries_Galloway) 3.09
2 Dutch (Netherlands) 3.13
3 Scottish (Fife) 3.32
4 German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) 3.72
5 French (WestFrance) 3.75
6 English (England) 3.84
7 Scottish (Grampian) 3.87
8 Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) 3.91
9 Scottish (Highlands) 3.94
10 German (Germany) 4.01
11 Welsh (Wales) 4.03
12 Irish (Munster) 4.05
13 Scottish (Borders) 4.06
14 Irish (Connacht) 4.21
15 Irish (Leinster) 4.6
16 Irish (Cork_Kerry) 4.82
17 French (NorthwestFrance) 4.92
18 German (Germany) 4.95
19 Irish (Ulster) 4.98
20 Hungarian (WestUkraine) 5.04

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58% Dutch (Netherlands) + 42% German (Germany) @ 1.72
2 63.8% English (Kent) + 36.2% Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 2.11
3 93.6% Dutch (Netherlands) + 6.4% Sardinian (Sardinia) @ 2.11
4 58.2% English (Kent) + 41.8% Croat (Croatia) @ 2.11
5 85.1% Dutch (Netherlands) + 14.9% Spanish (Baleares) @ 2.14
6 86.4% Dutch (Netherlands) + 13.6% Italian (Bergamo) @ 2.17
7 72% Dutch (Netherlands) + 28% French (France) @ 2.17
8 62.2% English (Kent) + 37.8% Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 2.18
9 51.2% Pole (EastPoland) + 48.8% French (France) @ 2.18
10 65.9% German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) + 34.1% French (France) @ 2.2
11 73.5% German (Germany) + 26.5% Belarusian (Kobryn_Brest) @ 2.28
12 62.6% English (Kent) + 37.4% Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 2.29
13 62.6% German (Germany) + 37.4% Pole (EastPoland) @ 2.3
14 83.6% Dutch (Netherlands) + 16.4% Spanish (Spain) @ 2.32
15 75.2% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 24.8% Serbian (Serbia) @ 2.33
16 81.4% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 18.6% Bulgarian (Bulgaria) @ 2.34
17 53% German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) + 47% German (Germany) @ 2.36
18 79.7% Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) + 20.3% Macedonian (Macedonia) @ 2.37
19 74.5% English (Kent) + 25.5% Bulgarian (Bulgaria) @ 2.38
20 91.3% German_Lipsian ((Saxony)) + 8.7% Basque (France) @ 2.39

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Dutch_Netherlands @ 3.274976
2 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 3.489155
3 Scottish_Fife @ 3.712329
4 German_Lipsian_(Saxony) @ 3.931316
5 French_WestFrance @ 4.263665
6 German_Germany @ 4.343829
7 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.389420
8 Welsh_Wales @ 4.404320
9 English_England @ 4.420324
10 Scottish_Highlands @ 4.469447
11 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 4.479485
12 Irish_Munster @ 4.564543
13 Scottish_Borders @ 4.651851
14 Irish_Connacht @ 4.778974
15 French_NorthwestFrance @ 5.283541
16 Irish_Leinster @ 5.303271
17 German_Germany @ 5.309929
18 Hungarian_WestUkraine @ 5.399473
19 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 5.511191
20 French_EastFrance @ 5.540904

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_Netherlands +50% German_Germany @ 1.918512


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_Netherlands +25% German_Germany +25% German_Germany @ 1.918512


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + German_Germany + German_Germany @ 1.918512
2 German_Germany + German_Germany + Hungarian_Hungary + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.959151
3 German_Germany + German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.989705
4 Dutch_Netherlands + French_France + German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland @ 1.998973
5 English_Kent + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 2.020771
6 Croat_Croatia + Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + German_Germany @ 2.025858
7 German_Germany + German_Germany + Irish_Connacht + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.050454
8 German_Germany + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Slovak_Slovakia @ 2.060614
9 German_Germany + Macedonian_Macedonia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.077238
10 German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + German_Germany + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.084528
11 German_Germany + Irish_Connacht + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina @ 2.084617
12 German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Serbian_Serbia + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 2.090191
13 German_Germany + German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 2.096536
14 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.098627
15 German_Germany + German_Germany + Irish_Munster + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.103043
16 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.104414
17 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + German_Germany + Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 2.104798
18 Croat_Croatia + German_Germany + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.105171
19 German_Germany + German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Highlands @ 2.105613
20 German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Serbian_Bosnia-Herzegovina + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 2.106674

Last edited by WilmaWildcat; 04-11-2018 at 10:53 PM..
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Old 04-11-2018, 11:18 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
3,996 posts, read 1,776,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Where in Greece is that? Google is no help, it does not recognize the place name in Latin script. One of my wife's great-grandparents was a blond haired/grey eyed Greek as well.
I believe it was in the region east of Trikala. It’s been a couple of years since my mom pointed it out for me on the map.

There are several people on both 23&me & Gedmatch that have family from that region but you are correct in that it does not exist as far as google is concerned!

That’s interesting about your wife’s relative; my mom used to call her grandfather an “Adonis” Greek & said that is where she got her height from, as she was 5’10”. I suppose I may have too, as I am 5’10 & it sure didn’t come from my dad (he is 5’6”).
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,619,598 times
Reputation: 2770
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
I believe it was in the region east of Trikala. It’s been a couple of years since my mom pointed it out for me on the map.

There are several people on both 23&me & Gedmatch that have family from that region but you are correct in that it does not exist as far as google is concerned!

That’s interesting about your wife’s relative; my mom used to call her grandfather an “Adonis” Greek & said that is where she got her height from, as she was 5’10”. I suppose I may have too, as I am 5’10 & it sure didn’t come from my dad (he is 5’6”).
Thanks! I am wondering how much (if any) difference there will be between long time "mainland" Greek families and the island folks. I will post my wife's results (with her permission, of course) once she receives them back. Probably about a month, the kit is will Ancestry.com right now.
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Old 04-12-2018, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Thanks! I am wondering how much (if any) difference there will be between long time "mainland" Greek families and the island folks. I will post my wife's results (with her permission, of course) once she receives them back. Probably about a month, the kit is will Ancestry.com right now.
There is no identified distinction between mainland Greeks and islanders, at least not on AncestryDNA.
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Old 04-12-2018, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
There is no identified distinction between mainland Greeks and islanders, at least not on AncestryDNA.
I think there is evidence of a difference.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4

According to the article mainland Greeks, like coschristi's familly, have more admix. with later arriving Balkan peoples, while "Island Greeks' are more genetically similar to other Mediterranean populations like Southern Italy.

I am walking a little delicately here, because the genetic make-up of modern Greeks is (very sadly) a question that has racist implications. Some folks try to claim today's Greeks are nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, and the "real ancient Greeks" were all Aryan types. Others in the Greek community reject even the idea that what is today's mainland Greece experienced the same waves of migrants as the rest of Balkan peninsula, or claim the people in some other part of Greece are the "Vlachs" while they are the "true Greeks."

I don't want to get into any of that nonsense, but I based on what my wife's parents tell me, they expect to see Italian, Turkish, French, Jewish, and other groups represented in their genome. My MIL was born on the island and she always says "we don't know who we are, we just all came here." "Here" meaning the small island that was repopulated by about 12 families in the mid-1800s. The island didn't become part of the Greek State until after WWII. It was Ottoman territory until after WWI, then part of Italy until after WWII. As mentioned previously, I wouldn't be surprised to see less diversity because her family's island has been pretty isolated and the founder effect will be strong.....but that depends upon who the founders were.

I am excited to see.
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Old 04-12-2018, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
I think there is evidence of a difference.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4

According to the article mainland Greeks, like coschristi's familly, have more admix. with later arriving Balkan peoples, while "Island Greeks' are more genetically similar to other Mediterranean populations like Southern Italy.

I am walking a little delicately here, because the genetic make-up of modern Greeks is (very sadly) a question that has racist implications. Some folks try to claim today's Greeks are nothing more than Hellenized Slavs, and the "real ancient Greeks" were all Aryan types. Others in the Greek community reject even the idea that what is today's mainland Greece experienced the same waves of migrants as the rest of Balkan peninsula, or claim the people in some other part of Greece are the "Vlachs" while they are the "true Greeks."

I don't want to get into any of that nonsense, but I based on what my wife's parents tell me, they expect to see Italian, Turkish, French, Jewish, and other groups represented in their genome. My MIL was born on the island and she always says "we don't know who we are, we just all came here." "Here" meaning the small island that was repopulated by about 12 families in the mid-1800s. The island didn't become part of the Greek State until after WWII. It was Ottoman territory until after WWI, then part of Italy until after WWII. As mentioned previously, I wouldn't be surprised to see less diversity because her family's island has been pretty isolated and the founder effect will be strong.....but that depends upon who the founders were.

I am excited to see.
I am not saying there is no difference - I'm saying AncestryDNA doesn't distinguish them. There's a percentage category for Europe South, and then there's a possible Genetic Community for "Greece, Turkey & Albania". Greece is not broken down anymore than that. Italy is - the GCs for Italy include: Sicily; Sicilians in Sicily & Calabria; Sicilians in Sicily & Reggio Calabria; Southern Italy; Calabria; Campania; Campania & Basilicata; Campania & Molise; Lazio & Campania; Puglia; Salerno; Umbria, Abruzzo & Lazio; Northern Italy. But I thought you original mentioned Greek mainlanders vs Greek islanders so that's what I was referring to.

Some Gedmatch Oracles may distinguish mainland Greece from islanders but those are very speculative and none of the testing companies (23andMe, AncestryDNA, MyHeritage, FTDNA, LivingDNA, Nat Geo's Geno 2.0, etc) are able to distinguish mainland from islanders.

As for Gedmatch, there is one Greek Islands oracle population in MDLP K23b, and Cretan in MDLP World, World-22, and K23b. But again, I wouldn't necessarily rely on them too much, my Oracle results aren't always very consistent with my recent genealogy.
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Old 04-12-2018, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,558 posts, read 7,619,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
I am not saying there is no difference - I'm saying AncestryDNA doesn't distinguish them. There's a percentage category for Europe South, and then there's a possible Genetic Community for "Greece, Turkey & Albania". Greece is not broken down anymore than that. Italy is - the GCs for Italy include: Sicily; Sicilians in Sicily & Calabria; Sicilians in Sicily & Reggio Calabria; Southern Italy; Calabria; Campania; Campania & Basilicata; Campania & Molise; Lazio & Campania; Puglia; Salerno; Umbria, Abruzzo & Lazio; Northern Italy. But I thought you original mentioned Greek mainlanders vs Greek islanders so that's what I was referring to.

Some Gedmatch Oracles may distinguish mainland Greece from islanders but those are very speculative and none of the testing companies (23andMe, AncestryDNA, MyHeritage, FTDNA, LivingDNA, Nat Geo's Geno 2.0, etc) are able to distinguish mainland from islanders.

As for Gedmatch, there is one Greek Islands oracle population in MDLP K23b, and Cretan in MDLP World, World-22, and K23b. But again, I wouldn't necessarily rely on them too much, my Oracle results aren't always very consistent with my recent genealogy.
Point taken, but even if Ancestry and Oracle aren't up to snuff with Greek Island reference samples, I think articles like the one I linked to can be insightful. Coscristi's Oracle populations seem consistent with what the article said to expect, mainland Greek with deep roots being a closer match to Albanian and other south Balkan group than Southern Italian groups.

I hear you on Oracle. One of the GEDmatch utilities really likes to assign me Balkan groups. Nearly 100% sure I have no ancestors from there. Have you ever used this utility?

Taux de Similitude

It gives you a heat map based on the Eurogenes K36 test, then allows you to pick a ancestral group to take away, and it recalibrates the heat map. Point being, if I know I have English ancestors, I can take that component out, and see what my other ancestors contributed to my DNA.

I have found it very useful. My Jewish ancestor seems to account for my stronger than expected matches to Balkan populations. English pretty much takes care of the rest. My family tree is more complicated, but pretty much any Great British group + AJ explains my personal genetic profile...........which is what Ancestry.com already told me 73%+14% and the rest is change.

Last edited by westsideboy; 04-12-2018 at 07:57 PM..
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
8,216 posts, read 12,805,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Point taken, but even if Ancestry and Oracle aren't up to snuff with Greek Island reference samples, I think articles like the one I linked to can be insightful. Coscristi's Oracle populations seem consistent with what the article said to expect, mainland Greek with deep roots being a closer match to Albanian and other south Balkan group than Southern Italian groups.

I hear you on Oracle. One of the GEDmatch utilities really likes to assign me Balkan groups. Nearly 100% sure I have no ancestors from there. Have you ever used this utility?

Taux de Similitude

It gives you a heat map based on the Eurogenes K36 test, then allows you to pick a ancestral group to take away, and it recalibrates the heat map. Point being, if I know I have English ancestors, I can take that component out, and see what my other ancestors contributed to my DNA.

I have found it very useful. My Jewish ancestor seems to account for my stronger than expected matches to Balkan populations. English pretty much takes care of the rest. My family tree is more complicated, but pretty much any Great British group + AJ explains my personal DNA profile...........which is what Ancestry.com already told me 73%+14% and the rest is change.
Yeah, I've used that tool - it's interesting but I don't know how it works very well for people with mixed ancestry, even with the ability to remove one population.
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