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Old 02-04-2019, 10:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenora View Post
"We should be able to specifically "opt out" of criminal investigations and not be forced to literally opt out of researching our families."

No. Those who want to participate in criminal investigations should be required to OPT IN.

ITA with this.



For me it is ridiculous that to not allow our DNA to be used by law enforcement that we have to not research our families at all with the technology.



Sadly, many people have removed their kits from being able to be matched now on FTDNA. I spoke to my relative who was going to use the kit I bought and he doesn't want his available for matching either so I'm wondering I can just get a refund at this point.
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:56 AM
bjh
Status: "Unaffected by the storms." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Memphis - home of the king
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
There are an estimated 400,000 untested rape kits languishing in the country, vs. how many serial murderers? I do think there is a difference, and I can see how law enforcement using these databases will have a chilling effect on customers using these companies to test their DNA for genealogy. This could spell the end of genetic testing for genealogy, as many people who test find that they have a close relative (maybe a 2nd cousin) on the "wanted" list and are expected to cough up names and locations of all their known relatives.

I am kind of sensitive to the rape issue as an adoptee who was told by the state when I was of age to request information that I was the product of rape. For years I believed I was a "rape baby" until I found my birth mother who said she made up the story. I would later learn that it was a frequent excuse to explain an unwanted pregnancy. Murders you can't make up. See the difference?
No one is being asked to "cough up names" nor will they be.

Discomfort by some having to face facts or non-facts is not a reason to avoid finding criminals from collected evidence.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:45 AM
Lou
 
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As long as each and every LE request begins with a warrant in hand, and as long as the company closely monitors the testing and release of results to ensure that only the information sought by the warrant is being given, I'm okay with it. But the TOS must state this (which I understand it now does). It's not to be taken for granted just because it's LE, or just because a previous request led to a serial killer being caught (for which I'm glad).

I'm not optimistic that it will always happen that way. Too many people immediately throw the door wide open for LE, take the position that if you don't have anything to hide you wouldn't care if the govt digs through your stuff, and operate as if personal privacy is always the first thing to be tossed aside - or even that personal privacy is dead. Make an exception today, look the other way tomorrow, and the next thing you know a certain long-term resident of a Moscow hotel is saying he told us so.

I initially thought I'd never do ancestry DNA because of the potential for it to be hacked or exploited. I eventually got swept in and was about to order a test kit. I changed my mind.

The company's statement said something about being approached by pharmaceutical companies. I wonder how often they're approached by all manner of entities who are dying to tap into this DNA info.

Last edited by Lou; 02-04-2019 at 12:49 PM..
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:54 AM
 
1,633 posts, read 661,171 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
Another concern I have is how long before law enforcement start using these databases routinely for every DNA sample they have, no matter what the crime. What's to stop them? I think people are fine with them finding the worst criminals (cold cases like the Golden State Killer--DNA from a coffee cup was used to get a match) but what if they start running thousands of rape kits and who knows what other kinds of samples when there is no match in CODIS? That would change the experience of genetic genealogy for me.
Cost. Not only to find the match but in manpower to submit it and canvas the trees to figure it out. It will be used, mostly on cold cases because that is what the cold case team is for.
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:45 PM
 
Location: NJ
10,018 posts, read 20,821,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJoe View Post
This goes to the old question of, ‘ would you turn in a relative if you knew they had committed a violent crime’.

Apparently, some here would not.
I would. I have 7 kits in all at everywhere except 23 and me. Relatives that I've paid to do their DNA and that they trust me to watch over. I personally do not know what relatives would do if their relative committed a crime and I can't speak for them. That's why I removed my trees but left the samples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Many people in genealogical community have issues with the bold, because as I noted, these "spaces" were originally to find ethnic and genealogical information for genealogical research - not solving crimes. Opting out of matching would make this service not something that would be useful for a lay genealogical researcher.



Opting out of matching means you cannot do any research on your own family.



Policy initiatives IMO are necessary as many people took these tests for a specific purpose that did not include the use of their data in criminal investigations.



Same as when you go have a blood draw for a medical issue, you are having your blood drawn for that issue and not to solve a crime. If we are going to allow genealogical DNA tests done for other purposes to be used in criminal investigations, why not let labs who do medical tests just test everyone since you sign/acknowledge other contracts with labs/medical centers for your biological material. For me it is the same thing.



I know that there are some states working to create policy to oversee this industry. IMO it really should be a federal policy initiative, just like HIPAA defines what our medical tissue/blood/samples and other information can be used for, there should be a similar policy for this sort of service. Private labs have to comply with HIPAA. IMO t here should be a similar initiative to protect consumers in regards to data privacy and security for DNA tests. We should be able to specifically "opt out" of criminal investigations and not be forced to literally opt out of researching our families.
Hate to tell you but some states do have their own DNA registry that they got samples from heel sticks when we had our kids. They also do it with other things like biopsies. I believe I posted about it in the golden state killer thread and may have made a thread just for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lenora View Post
"We should be able to specifically "opt out" of criminal investigations and not be forced to literally opt out of researching our families."

No. Those who want to participate in criminal investigations should be required to OPT IN.
Agree 100%
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Old 02-04-2019, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
8,562 posts, read 13,264,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Many people in genealogical community have issues with the bold, because as I noted, these "spaces" were originally to find ethnic and genealogical information for genealogical research - not solving crimes. Opting out of matching would make this service not something that would be useful for a lay genealogical researcher.
Then take a test at a company that doesn't allow uploads and therefore isn't a public database.
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Old 02-04-2019, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
8,562 posts, read 13,264,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
There are an estimated 400,000 untested rape kits languishing in the country, vs. how many serial murderers? I do think there is a difference,
So it's a question of numbers? It's okay to do this for a few criminals, but not many? Why? If you have a problem with the principle of it, even one should be a problem. If you don't have a problem with the principle, why should it matter how many?

Quote:
and I can see how law enforcement using these databases will have a chilling effect on customers using these companies to test their DNA for genealogy. This could spell the end of genetic testing for genealogy,
So you're just worried it will put people off and that means less matches for you? I'm sure that's a great comfort to the families of these victims...

Quote:
as many people who test find that they have a close relative (maybe a 2nd cousin) on the "wanted" list and are expected to cough up names and locations of all their known relatives.
They won't have to unless there's a court order... and it's doubtful they'd be forced to give up the details of every single one of their known relatives. That's not the way it works.

Quote:
I am kind of sensitive to the rape issue as an adoptee who was told by the state when I was of age to request information that I was the product of rape. For years I believed I was a "rape baby" until I found my birth mother who said she made up the story. I would later learn that it was a frequent excuse to explain an unwanted pregnancy. Murders you can't make up. See the difference?
No, I don't. Because they're not running DNA on children who were reported as the product of rape on an adoption form. They're running DNA samples from actual rape kits of people who were actually raped.
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Old 02-05-2019, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque NM
3,068 posts, read 4,688,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
So it's a question of numbers? It's okay to do this for a few criminals, but not many? Why? If you have a problem with the principle of it, even one should be a problem. If you don't have a problem with the principle, why should it matter how many?



So you're just worried it will put people off and that means less matches for you? I'm sure that's a great comfort to the families of these victims...



They won't have to unless there's a court order... and it's doubtful they'd be forced to give up the details of every single one of their known relatives. That's not the way it works.



No, I don't. Because they're not running DNA on children who were reported as the product of rape on an adoption form. They're running DNA samples from actual rape kits of people who were actually raped.
So you are embracing that the experience of DNA testing for genealogy will start to look more like DNA testing for helping law enforcement, as the numbers of law enforcement samples increases dramatically over time. I can see the new commercials now, where instead of smiles over ethnicity pie charts, customers smile at the mug shots of relatives snagged by their DNA. That's not what I signed up for when I tested, even though in order to identify my biological family (and family of other adoptees) I used exactly the techniques that are being used to identify criminal suspects.

What happens when an adoptee (or anyone else) tests and finds out that their closest match is a criminal DNA sample uploaded by law enforcement? Will they be able to communicate with law enforcement to get information about the crime committed? This would really complicate things.

Rape kits are from people who were ALLEGEDLY raped. I believe all rape kits should absolutely be tested, but using the methods that LE has been using, not genealogy databases.
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
8,562 posts, read 13,264,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
So you are embracing that the experience of DNA testing for genealogy will start to look more like DNA testing for helping law enforcement, as the numbers of law enforcement samples increases dramatically over time. I can see the new commercials now, where instead of smiles over ethnicity pie charts, customers smile at the mug shots of relatives snagged by their DNA. That's not what I signed up for when I tested, even though in order to identify my biological family (and family of other adoptees) I used exactly the techniques that are being used to identify criminal suspects.
I highly doubt that’s going to happen. Never mind that the picture you paint is ridiculous and wouldn’t ever be an advert. But additionally, I don’t think all companies will allow law enforcement access - particularly I don’t think AncestryDNA ever will. They don’t even have their database open for uploads for other users, so their database is not public. They don’t even have a chromosome browser for “privacy” reasons, so unless something drastically changes with their ownership or management, I doubt very much AncestryDNA will give law enforcement access without a court order. Ancestry are, after all, a genealogy company and DNA is only one aspect of their services. They aren’t going rebrand themselves for something they haven’t even allowed. You are acting as though all DNA companies are allowing this but they are not, and one or two allowing it does not mean the rest will follow suit.

Quote:
What happens when an adoptee (or anyone else) tests and finds out that their closest match is a criminal DNA sample uploaded by law enforcement?
People are already uncovering unwelcome news about their families with DNA. People who never knew they were adopted, people who find out their father isn’t their bio father, people who find out their mother was raped, etc.

Quote:
Will they be able to communicate with law enforcement to get information about the crime committed?
So your problem with it is that family members won’t be able to get enough information about it? I’m sure they’ll be able to find out whatever information is made available to public, possibly more if they are that closely related to the situation. I feel like at this point, once the criminal is identified it hardly matters how they were identified because the police already have procedures in place on what they are allowed to tell family members versus the public or the media, etc depending on the case. That really has nothing to do with DNA.

Quote:
This would really complicate things.
Things already are complicated when people find out things they weren’t expecting. If someone isn’t comfortable with that risk, don’t take the test, or at least don’t take one at a company that allows law enforcement to access. But personally, I would want to know if a close relative of mine was involved in a crime like that, however upsetting it may be. Again, regardless of how I found out or how upsetting it may be, it’s still the truth. Not only would I want a criminal brought to justice, but I would want to know if it was a close relative of mine. But if you’re not, then don’t take/upload a test to FTDNA or Gedmatch, or delete your data/opt out of matching if you already have (fair argument by those saying we should have be able to opt in or out of law enforcement having access without opting out of matching entirely, but that’s something you’ll have to take up with the company).

Quote:
Rape kits are from people who were ALLEGEDLY raped. I believe all rape kits should absolutely be tested, but using the methods that LE has been using, not genealogy databases.
And you’re entitled to that opinion, but your original comment was about mothers making up rape stories because it was a common “excuse” on adoption forms, which has nothing to do with this. This is about rape cases being actually reported to the police and DNA taken from rape kits. Your example has nothing to do with it.
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque NM
3,068 posts, read 4,688,788 times
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@PA2UK

I'm sorry but this sounds too much like a police state and it worries me when others seem so comfortable with it. To me it's a slippery slope. How long before law enforcement decides that Joe Schmoe who took a DNA test is charged with obstructing or hindering an investigation by not providing a family tree to help them catch a criminal? It's going to happen. And I suppose you'd be "fine with that" too.

And you're trying to draw an equivalency between criminal acts and things that are not crimes, like finding out your father isn't your bio father. I don't lump active criminal investigations and mistaken paternity together as "unwelcome news".

My example as a child of a rape lie had to do with drawing a contrast with murder cases. You can't fake a murder. I was arguing that there is a difference between crimes like murder and rape but some seemed to suggest they were equal. The law doesn't treat them equally.
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