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Old 02-06-2019, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque NM
3,072 posts, read 4,697,086 times
Reputation: 4522

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJoe View Post
The crime is different, but your argument is weak. You draw a line at murder when using DNA information. That indicates that you believe that catching a rapist is less of a moral imperative than catching a murderer. I don’t think you can separate which violent felonies you chose to include.

You can’t fake a murder, but people have been found guilty of murder than later exonerated. So if my second cousin is accused of murder, should I withhold my DNA info by assuming he is innocent?
Actually sometimes the falsely convicted are exonerated by DNA that is later tested and doesn't match.

With murder you have a dead body from which a suspect's DNA is collected. With rape you have a person who makes an allegation that usually is very difficult to prove. And unfortunately there are many people who are casual liars, or pathological liars, or who have personality disorders, or who later recant their allegation, and whether they lie about a rape to law enforcement or later to a social worker at an adoption agency (like my birth mother) it is still a lie that in the end tragically diminishes the credibility of all people who allege rape.

You missed the post where I said all rape kits should be tested using existing law enforcement DNA technology, not genealogy databases. And while I'm happy they have been able to solve some of the most heinous crimes using genealogy databases, I still don't believe they should be used for that purpose. Let them create a separate DNA database using DNA from people who want to help law enforcement. They should even develop a strategy for offering to test a critical mass of people in the general public, and from every community, at law enforcement's OWN EXPENSE. Not piggyback on databases where people spent their own money to find out information for their own personal reasons.

All I'm really saying is that there should be separation between databases. Databases for genealogical research only, and databases that can be used by law enforcement with the express permission of all users. I'm still undecided what to do with the many kits I manage at FTDNA for people both related and unrelated to me. I've helped several other adoptees who've shown up in my relative lists identify their parents. It has given me a great deal of satisfaction. I would hate to lose that ability by deleting kits. I've spent upwards of $1000 on testing including BigY, mtDNA, and autosomal tests. It has evolved into one of my favorite hobbies and passions. It feels unfair that they're changing the rules now to allow criminal investigations after I've been a customer for 7 years. I don't appreciate being told "If you don't like it, leave it." They're not going to refund my money.

Last edited by aries63; 02-06-2019 at 12:16 PM..
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:03 PM
 
Location: VT; previously MD & NJ
2,062 posts, read 1,221,453 times
Reputation: 5841
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
So you are embracing that the experience of DNA testing for genealogy will start to look more like DNA testing for helping law enforcement, as the numbers of law enforcement samples increases dramatically over time. I can see the new commercials now, where instead of smiles over ethnicity pie charts, customers smile at the mug shots of relatives snagged by their DNA. That's not what I signed up for when I tested, even though in order to identify my biological family (and family of other adoptees) I used exactly the techniques that are being used to identify criminal suspects.

What happens when an adoptee (or anyone else) tests and finds out that their closest match is a criminal DNA sample uploaded by law enforcement? Will they be able to communicate with law enforcement to get information about the crime committed? This would really complicate things.
Well, a person who matches the criminal's DNA could send a message like to anyone else. Whether or not Law Enforcement responds is another story.

Quote:
Rape kits are from people who were ALLEGEDLY raped. I believe all rape kits should absolutely be tested, but using the methods that LE has been using, not genealogy databases.
The problem with how they do it now is their database is limited to people who have already committed a crime. So they have to wait until the person is at least a 2-time criminal whose DNA was collected before they catch them. I have no problem with law enforcement using the DNA databases to catch criminals.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:12 PM
 
Location: VT; previously MD & NJ
2,062 posts, read 1,221,453 times
Reputation: 5841
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
ITA with this. And it is very strange to me that so many people don't believe things like what you mention won't happen. No one thought any of this would happen, but it has. Things happen.



And there has been a lot of talk about the blue in some of the forums I'm a member of that are geared toward African American researchers in particular. Black Americans are very leary of law enforcement due to this history of abuses by law enforcement against us, including planting "evidence" that is false to get a conviction. Many are afraid that police/LE will frame them for some crime or frame some relative of theirs and I know that sounds far fetched, but it is a real fear and has made a lot of people delete their kits.
What the heck does ITA mean?

What the heck does "a lot of talk about the blue" mean?

Unless you are typing on an old telephone 10-number keypad, there is no need for abbreviations that obscure what you are trying to say.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,735 posts, read 7,864,280 times
Reputation: 2909
Quote:
Originally Posted by ansible90 View Post
What the heck does ITA mean?

What the heck does "a lot of talk about the blue" mean?

Unless you are typing on an old telephone 10-number keypad, there is no need for abbreviations that obscure what you are trying to say.
ITA is " I totally agree," pretty common internet slang........or a 15 second google search.

I assumed the second comment referred to police officers, but Residinghere can correct me if I am wrong.

Overall, her point is important, different communities may have different feelings about the police getting involved with these DNA companies because they have different underlying opinions about the police in general.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,947 posts, read 13,814,049 times
Reputation: 15079
Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
With murder you have a dead body from which a suspect's DNA is collected. With rape you have a person who makes an allegation that usually is very difficult to prove.
How many rapes have you investigated?

Oh, that's right, you've never investigated a rape or sexual assault in your entire life and never will.

Rest assured, I have.

You get semen. Sometimes sexually transmitted diseases, because the rapist is infected with chlamydia, or gonorrhea, or herpes. You get pubic hair. You get other body hair. You get clothing fibers. Sometimes saliva. Sometimes teeth-marks. Sometimes you get foreign material like motor oil, lubricants like grease, or lubricants from the condom (some rapists use condoms, but you wouldn't know that), metal filings, sawdust, flour -- just a few I've come across, and sometimes in resisting, the victim picks up skin or blood from the rapist.

Sometimes there's other evidence, like finger-prints, shoe-prints or tire tracks, or tool marks or physical damage to doors or windows when the rapist forces his way into the home.

One time, I had tire-tracks, forced entry, finger-prints, a brutally beaten victim, and semen and pubic hair samples.

And you're saying it's an "alleged" rape?

People just like you are the reason many women don't report rapes.

The finger-prints came back to a man she didn't know. They had never dated, did not go to school together, did not work together, had no commonalities among family, friends, acquaintances or co-workers, and had never communicated telephonically (cell-phones weren't big back then).

He just happened to frequently drive down that road and knew a woman lived there and that her husband worked 3rd shift, so she was alone.

He confessed to that, and two other rapes. He's doing life plus 8-15 years (for the burglaries -- that was his MO to break in at night and rape).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
And unfortunately there are many people who are casual liars, or pathological liars, or who have personality disorders, or who later recant their allegation, and whether they lie about a rape to law enforcement or later to a social worker at an adoption agency (like my birth mother) it is still a lie that in the end tragically diminishes the credibility of all people who allege rape.
That's a very small percentage, and, why, yes, I've investigated those, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
You missed the post where I said all rape kits should be tested using existing law enforcement DNA technology, not genealogy databases.
That's not how it works, and if you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that.

The DNA is tested first, and after, and only after, the DNA has been tested do they look at genealogy databases.

The reason to look at genealogy databases is because the identify of the DNA contributor is unknown.

By comparing the DNA contributed by the perpetrator to DNA in genealogy databases, you can identify surnames.

And that is very often where it ends.

Because once you have several surnames, you can run those surnames through RCIC/NCIC or any number of other law enforcement databases and get a list of people with those surnames, and their given names, and their arrests and convictions, and their last known address.

Now, who, among that list of people, has some relationship with the victim, or lives in the area where the crime occurred, or lives in the area where the victim lived?

It's not rocket science.

Most likely, that will be only one person. Now you do a background investigation, and if the information is sufficient, you bring them in for questioning, or if there is substantial information, execute search and arrest warrants.

However, not everyone who commits a crime has a prior criminal record, and if they don't, then law enforcement has to go back to the genealogy database and construct a family tree to either identify the individual or the closest family member and then interview them to identify the individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
And while I'm happy they have been able to solve some of the most heinous crimes using genealogy databases, I still don't believe they should be used for that purpose.
If government used them to track down heirs to an estate or money owed to those people, would you be opposed to that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
I'm still undecided what to do with the many kits I manage at FTDNA for people both related and unrelated to me. I've helped several other adoptees who've shown up in my relative lists identify their parents. It has given me a great deal of satisfaction. I would hate to lose that ability by deleting kits. I've spent upwards of $1000 on testing including BigY, mtDNA, and autosomal tests. It has evolved into one of my favorite hobbies and passions. It feels unfair that they're changing the rules now to allow criminal investigations after I've been a customer for 7 years. I don't appreciate being told "If you don't like it, leave it." They're not going to refund my money.
Why should they? You've already obtained something of value for something of value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
There is no value in taking a test for genealogical research if there is no large database of users to compare to.
Yes, there is.

If you want Y-DNA testing, your options are extremely limited. FTDNA is just about the only option.

It would be false to say it was of no value.

I know exactly, within 5 miles, where my ancestors were living 850 years ago.

Ancestry, 23andMe and MyHeritage were unable to do that, but FTDNA could and did.

And, thanks to FTDNA, I'm now in contact with someone from a family group who lived right next to my family 850 years ago, and we're having fun sorting this thing out.

We believe we can go back another 100 years, to about 1070 CE to 1090 CE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
All good points. I will add that you absolutely can "fake a murder." A person can stage a suicide scene to look like a murder to get back at someone.
That actually happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
An accidental death can be staged to look like a murder to deflect blame away from the person who did the actual accidental killing (which could still be manslaughter.)
That actually happens, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
Many people view the evidence in the JonBenet Ramsey case as the later, an accidental death/manslaughter that was staged to look like a premeditated murder.
I've considered that as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
What happens when an adoptee (or anyone else) tests and finds out that their closest match is a criminal DNA sample uploaded by law enforcement? Will they be able to communicate with law enforcement to get information about the crime committed? This would really complicate things.
In what way? I'm guessing you're not familiar with the phrase "matter of public record."

All criminal records are a matter of public record, as are property transfers, probate actions, marriages, deaths and births, business filings, and other business transactions. Adoption records are limited.

For the record (no pun intended) there is no State that expunges criminal records.

One may -- and State laws vary greatly, but generally certain felony offenses are exempted -- seven years from the date of total completion of sentence, meaning the sentence, parole or probation has ended and the last dollar owed for restitution, fines, fees or court costs have been paid, seek to have their records sealed. Sealed records may not be viewed by anyone, not even law enforcement, unless they appear before a judge and show cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
There are an estimated 400,000 untested rape kits languishing in the country, vs. how many serial murderers?
Far less than 400,000. Serial murderers are extremely rare.

The FBI estimates there are perhaps 2,600 serial killers in the history of the US, which is 0.65% of 400,000 rape kits.

In reality, there are more serial rapists than there are serial killers.

The definition of serial killer is two or more murders occurring as disparate events over a period of time.

That would include people who have a callous disregard for human life, but are not actually serial killers, such as spouses who kill spouses for financial reasons, gang members and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
I am kind of sensitive to the rape issue as an adoptee who was told by the state when I was of age to request information that I was the product of rape. For years I believed I was a "rape baby" until I found my birth mother who said she made up the story. I would later learn that it was a frequent excuse to explain an unwanted pregnancy. Murders you can't make up. See the difference?
I see that you are ignorant of the fact that fake murders were quite common in the US.

Ironically, it was DNA testing and other technology that has pretty much put an end to it, although it still happens occasionally.

People would murder themselves to collect on the life insurance policy, or gain other financial advantages, or avoid criminal prosecution or for other reasons.

I see you're also ignorant of the fact that unwed mothers are no longer stigmatized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
Another concern I have is how long before law enforcement start using these databases routinely for every DNA sample they have, no matter what the crime. What's to stop them?
Money and time.

You would do well to go spend a day riding around in a patrol vehicle, and then a day riding around with detectives and then a day sitting in the office with them.

All police departments have a budget.

Nearly all police in the US are on salary, but their union contracts demand overtime typically after 40, or 42 or 48 hours.

All police departments must operate within their budget.

Because all of the above is true, police prioritize crimes based on two criteria: the severity of the crime and the impact on public safety.

Consequently, murders and rapes get the highest priority, because of their severity and threat to public safety.

Robberies are low priority, unless, there is a serial robber -- and there are more of those than there are serial killers -- or there is a rash of robberies in an area of town.

For example, the Clifton area near the UC campus had a rash of robberies, so the police department spent money on overtime to have more police patrolling the area and plain-clothes detectives on stake-outs to diminish the threat to public safety.

The same is true for serial burglars -- and there are more of them than serial killers -- or a rash of burglaries in a particular area.

In Ohio, there were 20,000 untested rape kits, because all of the police departments had spent all of their money on DNA testing for murders. They asked the State Attorney General to release funds from their office so the rape kits could be tested, but Democrat Richard Cordray refused.

When Cordray was running for governor last year, that fact made a really good campaign commercial for his opponent, and Cordray lost.

The point being, if police don't have the money in their budgets to DNA test rape kits, then they don't have enough money to DNA test evidence from arsons, kidnappings, robberies, burglaries, assaults, larcenies, including auto theft, and a large number of other crimes.

So, if you seriously believe the police -- who don't have the money -- are going to be DNA testing less serious offenses or minor crimes and then wasting valuable time and even more money searching through genealogy databases, you're probably not in touch with Realityģ.
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Old 02-07-2019, 03:30 AM
 
Location: NJ
10,061 posts, read 20,857,147 times
Reputation: 7687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
My question is, how do we know they're not already doing it without anyone's knowledge. That's what I question because a cop or detective that has access to the DNA sample can upload to My Heritage and FTDNA using a fake name and email addy. We just don't know.
DNA Doe Project just announced on their FB page that FTDNA is allowing them to upload John and Jane Doe DNA to their database. They will enable matching, see what they get then disable matching so that hopefully no one sees their Doe profiles online. They do not want anyone seeing them; if someone does they may end up contacting the family. DNA Doe Project doesn't even contact families, they leave everything up to LE (Law Enforcement)

DNA Doe Project posted 12 hours ago
Quote:
There has been a lot of discussion lately about Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) allowing law enforcement to submit forensic samples to their database. This represents a change in their Terms of Service. Our Facebook page is not a forum for debating all the repercussions of this move, nor will we comment about FTDNA’s policy. However, with the new TOS we have decided that as long as we obtain permissions from the relevant agencies as well as from FTDNA we will make use of this opportunity. We have obtained those permissions and have begun uploading some of our John and Jane Does to FTDNA. Any additional DNA matches we can find on FTDNA might aid us in our attempts to identify them.

When considering other databases we have always had two concerns:

• We want to be in compliance with any Terms of Service and Site policies
• We want to avoid any close family members finding out about a death of their loved one through these sites, or giving them false hope that a missing family member is now alive.

To address the latter in the case of FTDNA, we are opting in to DNA matching only for a very brief time – enough to capture the information we need. We then disable the matching option to render us invisible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
Email from FTDNA

Dear Customers:

I am writing to address the news that our Gene-by-Gene laboratory, which processes genetic tests for several commercial clients in addition to all of the FamilyTreeDNA tests, has processed a handful of DNA samples for cold cases from the F.B.I. In many cases, the news reports contained false or misleading information.


Sincerely,

Bennett Greenspan
President
FamilyTreeDNA.com

“History Unearthed Daily"
I tried replying to the email yesterday to say I wish we could opt out pf LE matching and letting them know that I removed my trees but the email bounced. Now to contact them so my voice can be heard. I suggest others also contact FTDNA to make your voice heard. FTDNA Contact Us Phone number 713-868-1438 - Mon - Fri 9 AM - 5 PM CT


Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
This is the reason why I have concerns as well. My older relatives are very leary of law enforcement as are many of my cousins and my brother actually did ask me about this as I have a FTDNA test that he'd agreed to use but now he is hesitant.



I have personally allowed my own DNA to be used in various studies by "opting in" to those studies. I didn't do this with my relatives. I'd like to be able to not do this with any relatives unless they express a desire to do so.



And I do worry about the requests from criminal genetic researchers for our family trees. I've also put my tree on "private" so that it cannot be viewed anymore at ancestry unless I give access. Someone who I've worked with before on family research has actually been contacted by a researcher working with law enforcement. They received an email based on Gedmatch kits they manage asking for their family tree and/or names of relatives. This is the sort of intrusion people don't want to deal with. And just in black genealogy circles it has a lot of people spooked. The person who shared about being contacted also writes a blog and was told that the person they were looking to identify - a criminal was a "third cousin" that the user "probably didn't know personally." Black families often know our 3rd cousins and many comments about this was that if it is known they are a the family researcher and knows the cousin, what if this also puts them in danger from the criminal family member. There are a lot of scenarios that are frightening and allow opt outs/ins would be better IMO.
I'm really shocked to hear they were contacted. My friend Carl works with DNA Doe Project matching DNA at GEDmatch. They do their own work on Ancestry making Doe trees. They also look at high school yearbooks and look for obituaries. I know they do not contact families. They let LE do the contacting once they've made their match trees. It's very involved too; especially when they have 3rd or 4th cousin matches. Who ever contacted your relative must not have been that good at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
True, but that’s why I recommend sticking with companies that don’t allow uploads.
I guess time will tell if My Heritage will get in on this too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aries63 View Post
Actually sometimes the falsely convicted are exonerated by DNA that is later tested and doesn't match.

With murder you have a dead body from which a suspect's DNA is collected. With rape you have a person who makes an allegation that usually is very difficult to prove. And unfortunately there are many people who are casual liars, or pathological liars, or who have personality disorders, or who later recant their allegation, and whether they lie about a rape to law enforcement or later to a social worker at an adoption agency (like my birth mother) it is still a lie that in the end tragically diminishes the credibility of all people who allege rape.

You missed the post where I said all rape kits should be tested using existing law enforcement DNA technology, not genealogy databases. And while I'm happy they have been able to solve some of the most heinous crimes using genealogy databases, I still don't believe they should be used for that purpose. Let them create a separate DNA database using DNA from people who want to help law enforcement. They should even develop a strategy for offering to test a critical mass of people in the general public, and from every community, at law enforcement's OWN EXPENSE. Not piggyback on databases where people spent their own money to find out information for their own personal reasons.

All I'm really saying is that there should be separation between databases. Databases for genealogical research only, and databases that can be used by law enforcement with the express permission of all users. I'm still undecided what to do with the many kits I manage at FTDNA for people both related and unrelated to me. I've helped several other adoptees who've shown up in my relative lists identify their parents. It has given me a great deal of satisfaction. I would hate to lose that ability by deleting kits. I've spent upwards of $1000 on testing including BigY, mtDNA, and autosomal tests. It has evolved into one of my favorite hobbies and passions. It feels unfair that they're changing the rules now to allow criminal investigations after I've been a customer for 7 years. I don't appreciate being told "If you don't like it, leave it." They're not going to refund my money.
The thing that sucks is that you have to contact FTDNA to get the DNA deleted. If you've actually paid for the mtDNA, Y-DNA and family finder and have them deleted, if at some point you go back and upload they will be under separate accounts they will not all fall under one log in. That's one of my biggest gripes about FTDNA that I have 7 relatives DNA including my own but 8 profiles to log into. What a royal pain to have to go to my contacts to get the long in info each time I want to go there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
I removed my trees. They may be able to take my DNA to make matches but I won't provide them my trees; the little I do have on my family. I can't give them my son's fathers side which I got a lot farther on. They can find the work from someone else with a public tree.

For anyone wanting to remove their tree log in, click where it says "my family tree" On the top right, you'll see your name and kit number; right under it you'll see "settings". Click settings, delete family tree is there.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:50 AM
 
Location: VT; previously MD & NJ
2,062 posts, read 1,221,453 times
Reputation: 5841
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideboy View Post
ITA is " I totally agree," pretty common internet slang........or a 15 second google search.

I assumed the second comment referred to police officers, but Residinghere can correct me if I am wrong.

Overall, her point is important, different communities may have different feelings about the police getting involved with these DNA companies because they have different underlying opinions about the police in general.

Have you tried that Google search? I did. Lots of organizations with the initials ITA. Nothing about internet abbreviations.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
4,735 posts, read 7,864,280 times
Reputation: 2909
Quote:
Originally Posted by ansible90 View Post
Have you tried that Google search? I did. Lots of organizations with the initials ITA. Nothing about internet abbreviations.
Yes. The key when searching any acronym on Google is to include a slightly more descriptive search string to narrow the results. I did "ITA internet slang" and the first result was this.

https://www.internetslang.com/ITA-me...definition.asp
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
8,571 posts, read 13,290,174 times
Reputation: 10997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
I guess time will tell if My Heritage will get in on this too.
You could always contact them and ask, of course their position could change at any point. But like Ancestry.com, Myheritage are a genealogy website who offer DNA. Despite being named FamilyTreeDNA, they are a DNA company who accept gedcom uploads because itís the only way to make any use of your DNA matches, not because they are a genealogy company (because they arenít a genealogy company).
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:56 AM
 
Location: NJ
10,061 posts, read 20,857,147 times
Reputation: 7687
Just saw this article on google news figured I'd share. I'm going to make a new thread too so that hopefully everyone sees it. It never occurred to me just how many people (80%) select yes to participate in their studies and just how large 23 and me and Ancestry are; according to the article 15 million users! Think about that. They could go into business for themselves with those numbers; and we know 23 and me is planning to thanks to all the users who allowed them free use of their data. When will they share in the profits? That's what turns me off. They could lower the price of testing but they rarely even go on sale.

Personally I think I'm going to not allow matching for now on FTDNA since I can turn the feature off and on as I go there. Hopefully it will send the message that I don't agree with them just allowing the FBI the same access because when we originally uploaded our data was not going to be shared. They broke that promise. I rarely go there so it won't affect me the way that turning it off at Ancestry or My Heritage would. They really need to upgrade their web site it's so unfriendly to users and no app.

Genetic testing firms share your DNA data more than you think

Quote:
The big picture:
MIT Technology Review predicts more than 100 million people may be part of commercial genetic databases within the next two years.
Amid controversies over internet companies' collection of personal data, millions are paying to hand over DNA samples to a largely unregulated industry.

Driving the news:This month FamilyTreeDNA came under fire for voluntarily giving the FBI routine access to its database of more than 1 million users' data, allowing agents to test DNA samples from crime scenes against customers' genetic information to look for family matches.

FamilyTreeDNA apologized for not disclosing the agreement to consumers. The company told the NYT that users can disable the "matching" option to prevent their data from being visible. Ancestry.com and 23andMe say they require a warrant or subpoena before they consider turning over data to law enforcement.

Drugmakers also want access. Ancestry.com and 23andMe — the largest companies that, combined, have DNA data of 15 million users — both share anonymized genetic data with outside researchers and companies.
Last summer, 23andMe struck a drug-development deal with GlaxoSmithKline, and it's working on developing its own line of drug treatments.
Ancestry has worked with Google spinoff Calico to study human longevity.
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