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Sorry, but that seems odd to me. I guess African-Americans look elsewhere, i.e. outside the US, because many of them still don't feel welcome in their own country.
Everyone in America looks elsewhere. You said you are a German who lives in Portugal. If you go to, say, New Bedford or Fall River, in Massachusetts, or Providence, Rhode Island, you will see Portuguese restaurants, social clubs, bars, museums, etc. If you go to central Pennsylvania, you will see people living in cloistered communities speaking German, and if you go to any number of American towns you will see German soccer clubs, social clubs, restaurants, etc. You will see Oktoberfests all over America. Does that seem odd to you? African Americans simply see themselves as Americans with an African past. And yes, I don't feel welcome here because White America has established that precedent. But even if I were a white man and did feel welcome here, I would be interested in my European background.
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AAs are still faced with many problems such as much higher unemployment etc., so their perspectives are not good and they look for some lost decent African past before their ongoing plight in the New World started. And of course they wish to distance themselves from WASP America. I can't blame them, but I don't think looking back will help them, either.
"Perspectives are not good"? I am not getting what you are saying. Anyway, I have no illusions about Africa or my past. We achieved great things while allowing ourselves and others to destroy our societies and steal our human and natural resources.
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You seem to assume that an African-American belongs to one ethnic group, which is totally unrealistic, the longer his or her ancestors have been in the US. Slaves were sold all over the country, families split etc. So it is very likely that most modern African-Americans have the genes of various ethnic groups such as Yoruba (funny, this ethnic group seems to be the dream of most AAs, maybe because it is the one with the most widely known culture which one could then 'call one's own'), Ashante, Igbo etc., not to mention Brit and German genes in many cases as most AAs are mixed-race due to affairs, rape and so on.
I make no such assumptions. What you say in this paragraph has little relevance to my quest.
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I find it disturbing to 'claim' this or that ancestry as you put it. I am a German living in Portugal. If I had children with a Portuguese woman and never returned to Germany, I would find it equally weird for my kids, let alone grandkids etc., to claim German ancestry as they have nothing to do with Germany or Germans. It is only genes, everything that matters such as culture, mentality, language, customs etc. would be Portuguese.
That of course would make sense because their mother was Portuguese and they would be raised in Portugal. That is different than the situation you are finding hard to understand. Say your children were born in Portugal but in a segregated society where they were on one hand told they were not really or fully Portuguese but that they were also not to speak German or observe any German customs. They were drafted to fight in the Portuguese military but were not given the full rights of citizenship in the country. They were expected to be taxpaying, productive members of society, but then were not allowed access to the types of employment that builds wealth. Do you think your descendants would not be confused about who they were?
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To me frankly genealogy is based on the same foundation as racism. Wishing to 'belong' to one group and not to another, being proud of something which was achieved by others and not by oneself, etc.
There are no wishes. You belong to whatever group you belong to. You look to the achievements of your ancestors to help you as you strive to achieve on your own.
I have to say Neuling, your post is speaks volumes about you and your issues than anything I am seeking. I find that when I wish to learn about another people, I shelve any temptation of imposing my purpose in life onto others. Are you able to do that?
Allow me to assist you i this regard. I will not assume anything about you. I will instead work with what you wrote and try with openness and civility, OK?
I guess African-Americans look elsewhere, i.e. outside the US, because many of them still don't feel welcome in their own country.
What a strange and irrelevant way of plunging into a debate for a foreigner. One is not usually so naive to stereotype. I see nothing in your statement but your your own baggage as to AA. Why the AA's search for identity would matter to an ethnic German is odd, especially given lessons from history. It is best not to not judge an entire population. Listening, reading, interacting. And right when you think you know things, repeat the process...you'll be amazed at much you will learn.
AAs are still faced with many problems such as much higher unemployment etc., so their perspectives are not good and they look for some lost decent African past before their ongoing plight in the New World started.
I have to wonder kind of life of tension are you leading such that you think that a given individual has no right to understand their roots! Why should every Afro-American bear on their shoulders the ills of all 30 million of their countrymen? You might be surprised to know that not every Afro-American knows how to dance, can sing, or has athletic skills. Some are quiet, research driven, and geeky. My sister in law is herself and very apolitical. She has three kids to raise. I think she is too busy with the responsibilities of life to be burdened with shouldering 30 million or explaining her actions to foreigners. Just a guess.
As for perspectives " not good," what on earth does this mean coming from a German? Can I offer this suggestion? Those people whose perspectives are not good...are not bound to offer perspectives are good. Yes, in some cases such people may be Afro-Americans. However, in some cases, it may be a guy in Idaho. And in some cases, it might be a German in Portugal. No need to libel 30 million people. It seems to me Germans did this once before with a rather poor result.
As for this thread, the idea of helping my sister in law with finding more about her ancestry was my suggestion not hers. While I have no doubt she is up to date with things, I came across the National Geographic's Genographic project and thought it would be cool for her.
Disclosure: I am not Afro American. However, if I were, why would I not want to know my roots back to the old country? Surely, it cannot so difficult for you to understand that the yearning to know one's roots is among the most natural of curiosities!
And of course they wish to distance themselves from WASP America. I can't blame them, but I don't think looking back will help them, either.
There is no doubt that some Afro-Americans have this POV, but we in America do not think as homogeneous and monolithic entities. One of reasons why Europeans have repeatedly misfired on gauging American politics is their assumption that America moves under the banner of one POV. Europe and Germany have not had a good track on this kind of group-think.
I am sure there is a diversity of opinions amongst the Afro-American, but I really do not know personally. If you are really intent on understanding what the AA community actually thinks (why a German living in Portugal has such a need is beyond me), then you might want to ask rather than assume. But again how odd!
You seem to assume that an African-American belongs to one ethnic group, which is totally unrealistic, the longer his or her ancestors have been in the US.
Hmmm...I don't seem to recall any such assumption being made. You are projecting an anger and frustration that seems out of place. After all the thread is not about German treatment of Jews or Soviet POWs. No, it just a rather innocent query on seeking what I can do to offer my sister-in-law answers to questions that have likely been with her ancestors for 200+ years. Any assumptions you have projected onto the thread have been those of your own doing.
this ethnic group seems to be the dream of most AAs, maybe because it is the one with the most widely known culture which one could then 'call one's own'
Dream? Help me out. You are a self-described "German in Portugal." Why on God's green earth do have such interest in the DNA search for Afro-Americans?? Why? LOL!! I have lived in six countries and come from considerably mixed ancestry. Yet I have no interest in sociopolitical aspects of Yemeni DNA ancestry. Why should I...would it not seem presumptuous?
Brit and German genes in many cases as most AAs are mixed-race due to affairs, rape and so on.
???? LOL! I am sure that the % of mixed African race due to affairs and rape is a TINY % of the population. Is this the course of your angst?
I find it disturbing to 'claim' this or that ancestry as you put it.
B-but, you are German? You are European, no? Your entire history has been deeply racist and nationalistic and continues to be, albeit under the friendly flag of blue stars.
But again, your are seeking a political tussle over what is nothing more a search for a deeper sense of history and roots. I am sorry that this thread has caused a rise in your dandruff. Again, I find this odd.
If I had children with a Portuguese woman and never returned to Germany, I would find it equally weird for my kids, let alone grandkids etc., to claim German ancestry as they have nothing to do with Germany or Germans.
You are revealing stuff here. You are talking about paternity tests, I am talking about the journey of man going back perhaps thousands of year.
To me frankly genealogy is based on the same foundation as racism.
Actually, not. If you are familiar with this kind of research, you would know that we are all African under the skin. This search is simply an attempt to know when certain branches were formed and how they split--what has been the journey taken by her DNA. I would think she would be missing a pulse were she not interested!
Wishing to 'belong' to one group and not to another, being proud of something which was achieved by others and not by oneself, etc.
I think it is safe to say that she won;t claim that her ancestors built the Great Wall of China. And I am sure lineage to Cleopatra is unlikely to turn up. But whatever results, her story will be told in her DNA.
Well, I know from American colleagues that various ethnic groups still pay attention to that kind of thing in your country. I guess I would not feel at home in a country like that. Despite the different proportions and structures your society is still similar to the Eurpopean one (as a whole) in that respect. I never had any interest in ethnic and national awareness, I am too far to the left for that. When the French are proud to be French it is as ridiculous to me as when Germans are proud to be German. I would only be happy if ethnic groups etc. mixed to such an extent that nobody could say anymore what/who is this and what/who is that. Of course that won't happen any time soon, thus I continue to look at humanity with pity and enjoy the company of those few like-minded people I have met so far.
When I first registered here (after playing the greencard lottery) and opened a thread on recommendable places to settle down, someone suggested a places with German roots and I thought to myself, what the hell, why do they expect me to even want anything or anyone German around me just because my body is from Germany?
I believe in the individual only. I have lived in various countries and come to realize that the only thing I really am is human, everything else is just a layer on top, quite sticky sometimes, true, but still...
@sandpointian
I see what your opinions are, I just don't share most of them, which is fine with me, though.
But let me say that just because I did not use smilies, doesn't mean this whole thing is nearly as important to me as you put it. I write on all kinds of topics when I have time, including this one. I don't look for any topics, I pick threads according to the title when I stumble upon them.
What you say about Germany is of no interest to me as I consider myself a citizen of the world, not a German (although I still have a German passport). Nationality is just a formal thing to me, so that I am attributed to a social security system etc. as long as there is no global one.
Regarding the rest, well, you have your views and I have mine
Neuling, I think it's sad that you don't take pride in your nationality. I have family in Germany and every German I've met there is very proud of their heritage. If not for national pride, Germany would never have been able to unite into the country it is today.
Now I've gone way off-topic ..but wanting to know about one's past and ancestors is a very human goal.
Nationality is just a formal thing to me, so that I am attributed to a social security system etc. as long as there is no global one.
Hi Neuling,
I think the point that is being missed is that he search for ancestry has nothing to do with nationality. Perhaps you should check out the Genographic project.
Hi Neuling,
I think the point that is being missed is that he search for ancestry has nothing to do with nationality. Perhaps you should check out the Genographic project.
It is the story of man--of understanding the world as one community.
S.
I know, I have seen all those haplogroup maps, out of Africa maps etc. before. I have read quite a bit on that site myself, but it just does not convince me of any importance outside science itself.
I studied Old African history as a minor for some time. It became quite obvious to me that West Africa was, despite regional details, a continuum. So I don't quite see the importance of finding out whether one's remote African ancestors were from what is now Nigeria, Ghana, Ivory Coast etc. The way I see it there are only two West African regions, the southern Christian/traditional one and the northern Muslim one.
I was referring to countries as regarding Europe it is usually as far as it goes. Modern Germany for instance is very mixed, people move all over the country, dialects get lost, Prussians marry Bavarians etc. So often times the question is simply German or not. Nor do I assume that Americans of German ancestry stress that their ancestors were from this or that village in this or that state. Most German Americans for instance who like American Oktoberfests are probably not of Bavarian ancestry.
Anyway, I hope your sister finds what she is looking for. She will soon realize anyway that it does not mean much in her life and future. America is so big, it should be enough to be American, in my view. Be part of something new rather than old.
Neuling, I think it's sad that you don't take pride in your nationality. I have family in Germany and every German I've met there is very proud of their heritage. If not for national pride, Germany would never have been able to unite into the country it is today.
Now I've gone way off-topic ..but wanting to know about one's past and ancestors is a very human goal.
Sure, but I can't be proud or guilty of something I did not achieve or do myself. Neither do I have anything to do with Goethe or Einstein, nor with Hitler or Marx. I just happened to be born on the same piece of land now called Germany.
Sure, but I can't be proud or guilty of something I did not achieve or do myself. Neither do I have anything to do with Goethe or Einstein, nor with Hitler or Marx. I just happened to be born on the same piece of land now called Germany.
LOL! I am sure that the % of mixed African race due to affairs and rape is a TINY % of the population. Is this the course of your angst?
A quote from Wiki: (yes, I know, Wiki is not a perfect source, but I have read it several times on different sites)
"With the help of geneticists, the historian Henry Louis Gates, Jr. put African-American ancestry in these terms:
58 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5 percent European ancestry (equivalent of one great-grandparent);
19.6 percent of African Americans have at least 25 percent European ancestry (equivalent of one grandparent);
1 percent of African Americans have at least 50 percent European ancestry (equivalent of one parent); and
5 percent of African Americans have at least 12.5 percent Native American ancestry (equivalent to one great-grandparent)."
LOL @ the direction this thread has taken. Look, maybe we just have a personal genuine interest in our ancestry that really doesn't have to be justified to anybody. Has nothing to do with how we're treated in the US or distancing ourselves from white people. Just plain old curiosity of our past. Damn, can we at least have that? I don't think we're expecting to go to Africa, track down tribes, automatically take on their language/customs and start holding all of the family cookouts there. (Although if that were to happen, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.) I'm a black American, period. Finding out about my ancestry doesn't change that. I'll still mark off the "black American" check box on job applications and continue to enjoy soul food and hip-hop.
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..but wanting to know about one's past and ancestors is a very human goal.
