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Old 05-24-2010, 07:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturningWest View Post
That CDIB card will get you enrolled in a Federally Recognized tribe. The Cherokee Nation is a decendency tribe so no blood quantum is required. Several tribes are like that.

It might not mean much to you now, but it could in the future. I am indian with significantly more "blood quantum" than you yet, unless I can unravel my genealogy I will never be enrolled.
The Cherokee Nation is one of the largest Nations - if the above is true what % of people in the Nation are not 100% or even something like 1/256th?

Personally, this is all meaningless. The way people were described esp. if you looked white enough did not do justice to the true nature of your genetic history. I mean a person with 1/4 of Native American Ancestry could look 100% white and they would be noted so on any documents that people now refer to in order to see if they have any native ancestry.

I have yet to find one African or Native American in my Ancestry yet my Genetics test says that I have 10% Sub-Saharan African, 6% East Asian, and 2% Native American (both the Asian and Native could be combined), and the rest European - and I look like 100% white.

I think your culture, language, and religion or philosophy define who you are more than shared genes. In this case most 100% Native Americans are not even Native Americans because they really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages.

To me, if I found out I was 1/256 of something I would not care to the point of being registered with anything nor would I start to 'identify' with that somthing.

Do not get me wrong I enjoy the search and the history but for me it is not about an identity issue - I am an American - that is my culture no matter how much I feel quaint notions about European culture. I do not go to Europe and feel 'a connection' with 'my people' - they are not my people. I know this is probably because I am white and privileged (far from it) and all that jazz and people of other 'races' do not feel like they belong (justifiably so in many cases). That just means we have to continue to move towards that goal not retreat to any glorified selective past. I just do not know why we make such a particularized point about it - I am 1/4, 1/8, 1/512, part of the XYZ club, ect. ect. - I have always felt a connection - yeah right Oprah (she thought she was Zulu - NOT) If you got a ancestor that was unique relative to all others great -point it out without all the subjective and absract notions. To me it only continues our dichotomy as humans - not that it cant be noted or spoken of but not just in the way so many do.

Why don't we all work to become a strong American Nation and not a bunch of particularized tribes fighting with one another?

Just my thoughts
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReturningWest View Post
Being ndn is much more than blood quantum, it's understanding and honoring your heritage.

All those freebies you seem to think ndn's get were part of a treaty and let me tell you, most tribes are still fighting over what the gov't AGREED TO and reneged on and continue to do so. There is not one again NOT ONE treaty that has stood as signed by the US gov't. The fight to retain and return land, money, services as promised is on going. Those "freebies" were in exchange for stealing our land and they continue to try even today.

If you would like more info on this google the fight over the Black Hills, considered sacred and stolen for the gold. Fishing rights all over the PNW, OK was supposed to be indian territory forever, again stolen. The Klamath tribes had 20 million acres stolen and their rights as a Federally recognized tribe, it took them 20 years to get recognition back and they are still trying to get their land back. These are just a few examples and all of this for greed. The US gov't entered into treaties with Sovereign Nations and then over and over again proceeded to steal, not provide agreed upon services, food, money etc.

The ndn's that are enrolled in a Federally Recognized Tribe are a fraction of the ndn population living today. Because of the laws forced on our ancestors by the gov't restricting enrollment that was poorly understood by the ndn's at the time, many of us are now inelegible for enrollment. I have friends that a full blood ndn's but because their parents were of different tribes they are not elegible to enroll in any tribe. Then there are many like myself who's ancestors were forced out of their homes and hid, did not trust the gov't (for good reason) and did not trust the enrollment system, my ancestors changed their surnames several times over one generation to "hide out", yet by all acounts they continued to practice many of their traditions, yet I, who has a significant amount of ndn blood can not enroll, unless I can find an elusive ancestor on the rolls.

The Cherokee Nation, along with many other tribes have a descendency requirement, not a blood quatum requirement. Of course all of these requirements were written by white men with the intent of creating a paper genocide in hopes we would disapear...WE ARE STILL HERE!

So for the lucky few who can claim enrollment, they are more than entitled to those few and hard fought for "freebies", they were and are not free under any stretch of the imagination.
I'm 1/4th Cherokee and proud of it. And I think your post is pathetic.

Yes, most of the tribes were abused in some way or another - and Cherokees especially egregiously. But most of the tribes also abused Europeans in one way or another. There was plenty of evil to go round.

But the whole - they stole our land thing - spare me. We stole it from some other tribe who stole it from another ad nauseum. Do you really think we had a right to claim thousands of square miles for ourselves (I'm talking the Cherokee Nation here) and deny it to Europeans who were being treated little better than slaves in their mother lands? Suck it up - we were defeated by a superior culture.

If the roles had been reversed do you think native Americans would have been as... dare I say it, merciful as the Europeans? No, we would have enslaved them or completely liquidated them. A little further south and we would have eaten them. Rants like yours embarrass me.

It is what it is and it is now ancient history. Let's move on.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:52 AM
 
Location: Stuck in NE GA right now
4,585 posts, read 10,478,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studiobtm View Post
I'm 1/4th Cherokee and proud of it. And I think your post is pathetic.

Yes, most of the tribes were abused in some way or another - and Cherokees especially egregiously. But most of the tribes also abused Europeans in one way or another. There was plenty of evil to go round.

But the whole - they stole our land thing - spare me. We stole it from some other tribe who stole it from another ad nauseum. Do you really think we had a right to claim thousands of square miles for ourselves (I'm talking the Cherokee Nation here) and deny it to Europeans who were being treated little better than slaves in their mother lands? Suck it up - we were defeated by a superior culture.

If the roles had been reversed do you think native Americans would have been as... dare I say it, merciful as the Europeans? No, we would have enslaved them or completely liquidated them. A little further south and we would have eaten them. Rants like yours embarrass me.

It is what it is and it is now ancient history. Let's move on.
I beg to differ, it is NOT ancient history for many tribes, maybe for you and yours it is but if you actually KNOW what is going on even today for many tribes you would not be making that statement.

The indigenous populations DID treat the first arriving whites well, until the whites started slaughtering them. Me thinks you have limited information on the history of this country in regards to indian population outside your own.
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Old 05-25-2010, 09:36 AM
 
31,990 posts, read 17,268,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I think your culture, language, and religion or philosophy define who you are more than shared genes. In this case most 100% Native Americans are not even Native Americans because they really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages.

Just my thoughts
Excuse me? Wow, are you ever wrong on that. Can you clarify what you mean by 100% Native Americans...? Are you saying NO Natives are practcing their traditional ways or speak their Native language? That is absurd.

Second, who are you to say who is or isn't practicing their traditional ways? You might want to visit western Oklahoma sometime.

A lot of people from my tribe, the Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma, DO have strong ties to our tribal traditions, ceremonies, and spiritual beliefs. NOTE: I said traditional spiritual beliefs, NOT religion. I say this over and over to people, particularly christians who believe they brought the concept of a Creator to our People. Whatever.

And many tribes are working to preserve their Native songs, languages, and ceremonies.
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Old 05-25-2010, 09:57 AM
 
31,990 posts, read 17,268,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studiobtm View Post
But the whole - they stole our land thing - spare me.
Okay, you are spared.

Its my understanding a treaty between two sovereign nations is guaranteed by the Constitution. My tribe challenged the treaty between Kiowas, Comanches, and Apaches and the US (Lonewolf, 1902) because the tribal chiefs who signed the treaty did not read or write english were given an understanding of the treaty that was false. That the US Govt. was not honest in their dealings or reneged on the treaty agreements is hardly a sparable offense IMO.

It is common knowledge that among many tribes, tribal warfare was a way of life, and there is no woe is me amongst my people. But once an accord has been reached, I do believe that each entity, whether it be government or tribal entity's should keep their word. Which simply wasn't the case.

Even President Jackson decided he would not follow the ruling of the Supreme Court. The law of the land is only as true as the men who rule it.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _redbird_ View Post
Excuse me? Wow, are you ever wrong on that. Can you clarify what you mean by 100% Native Americans...? Are you saying NO Natives are practcing their traditional ways or speak their Native language? That is absurd.

Second, who are you to say who is or isn't practicing their traditional ways? You might want to visit western Oklahoma sometime.

A lot of people from my tribe, the Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma, DO have strong ties to our tribal traditions, ceremonies, and spiritual beliefs. NOTE: I said traditional spiritual beliefs, NOT religion. I say this over and over to people, particularly christians who believe they brought the concept of a Creator to our People. Whatever.

And many tribes are working to preserve their Native songs, languages, and ceremonies.
As to your response and questions you should have seen the context - when I said 100% I meant, and the context should have been clear, genetics. If Native means that which was here before and practiced by the original populations then even if you are 100% genetically Indian then alot of them do not believe or practice and live in such a manner, let alone someone who is 1/4, 1/8 or 1/256, who say I am part Native American and tries to identify with that past culture. My point was that being a true Native American is way more than just having the genes and quaint feelings of belonging to something in the past, but living and practicing it and believing it. I was not talking about ties - but practice and belief. How many actually live in such a manner and believe in it and not just ceremonialize it as a past event connected to the present population? How many actually believe in those Myths, practice their Medicine, ect. ect. So, I meant that when even 100% (genetically) natives do not do such things that they are not really native American because that is something more than just a genetic identity let alone those who are looking for some connection with 1/4, 1/8, or 1/256 - it is a day to day culture. Also, working to preserve something if far different than practicing it - to practice and believe it on a daily basis as it was practiced back then is being native not some atachment by genes or feelings of connectedness or notions of liking particular aspects of that past culture while denying others (like eating people or torturing them). As far as the reference to Christians and that accusation - I do not know who you were referring too?

Hope that clears the fog
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:10 PM
 
31,990 posts, read 17,268,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studiobtm View Post
I'm 1/4th Cherokee and proud of it. And I think your post is pathetic.

Yes, most of the tribes were abused in some way or another - and Cherokees especially egregiously. But most of the tribes also abused Europeans in one way or another. There was plenty of evil to go round.

But the whole - they stole our land thing - spare me. We stole it from some other tribe who stole it from another ad nauseum. Do you really think we had a right to claim thousands of square miles for ourselves (I'm talking the Cherokee Nation here) and deny it to Europeans who were being treated little better than slaves in their mother lands? Suck it up - we were defeated by a superior culture. If the roles had been reversed do you think native Americans would have been as... dare I say it, merciful as the Europeans? No, we would have enslaved them or completely liquidated them. A little further south and we would have eaten them. Rants like yours embarrass me.
Your post says a lot about your worldview and very little discussion about the OP.

Why don't you start a thread stating why you think one culture is "superior" to another? Would opposing viewpoints be considered pathetic? Or how in the world you can profess to know how Native's (400 different tribes) would treat europeans before, during, and after warfare? Why is it illogical for the Cherokee to stake a claim to thousands of square miles, but another can call it manifest destiny?

I would like to hear your insights into what "might" have taken place if the roles were reversed?

Careful about saying rants embarrass you, that does not add to the discussion and is simply a flame.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:25 PM
 
31,990 posts, read 17,268,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
My point was that being a true Native American is way more than just having the genes and I was not talking about ties - but practice and belief. How many actually live in such a manner and believe in it and not just ceremonialize it as a past event connected to the present population?

Hope that clears the fog
And what fog might that be? Can you post without making a derogatory remark at the end? Is that to make you feel superior or do you feel I as a Native am incapable of grasping the context of your post?

"quaint feelings of belonging to something in the past, but living and practicing it and believing it."

So now it's "quaint"? Your tone is so condescending towards this topic. What community are you associated with Shiloh1? Are you Native, and if so, what tribe?

Our songs are not part of the past, our prayers, our worldview of our place in the cosmos are all still in practice and we still believe in our ceremonies. Why is that so hard for you to believe? Would you say someone is not Irish because they don't speak gaelic and live like it's 1491?

How many actually live in such a manner and believe in it and not just ceremonialize it as a past event connected to the present population?

In our community of western Oklahoma there are a great many who still practice the traditional values of respect for self and mother nature. We still have Indian doctors (what you might "quaintly" refer to as medicine man.) And there are still ceremonies of healing, prayers said in our native language and songs that predate the european.

The fact that you are asking indicates you are not as knowledgable about our ways, yet you still make posts denigrating our culture as being non-existent. And when it is told that it IS still practiced, you call it quaint and "ceremonialized".
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:52 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,401,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _redbird_ View Post
And what fog might that be? Can you post without making a derogatory remark at the end? Is that to make you feel superior or do you feel I as a Native am incapable of grasping the context of your post?

"quaint feelings of belonging to something in the past, but living and practicing it and believing it."

So now it's "quaint"? Your tone is so condescending towards this topic. What community are you associated with Shiloh1? Are you Native, and if so, what tribe?

Our songs are not part of the past, our prayers, our worldview of our place in the cosmos are all still in practice and we still believe in our ceremonies. Why is that so hard for you to believe? Would you say someone is not Irish because they don't speak gaelic and live like it's 1491?

How many actually live in such a manner and believe in it and not just ceremonialize it as a past event connected to the present population?

In our community of western Oklahoma there are a great many who still practice the traditional values of respect for self and mother nature. We still have Indian doctors (what you might "quaintly" refer to as medicine man.) And there are still ceremonies of healing, prayers said in our native language and songs that predate the european.

The fact that you are asking indicates you are not as knowledgable about our ways, yet you still make posts denigrating our culture as being non-existent. And when it is told that it IS still practiced, you call it quaint and "ceremonialized".
Why are you taking this all so personal as if my comments are about you?

The fog I was talking about, I'll be more direct, was your false accusation because of your inability to read carefully. You did not understand the context. And now you are just perpetuauting more accusations about me. I am not the one who thinks he is superior now am I?

Your Quote:

'Are you saying NO Natives are practcing their traditional ways or speak their Native language? That is absurd.'

Two points: 1) I never used such absolute terms, 2) You thought the 100% remark was about ALL Native Americans when in fact, as the context clearly indicated, it was about gentectics - someone who was 100% genetically Native American.

Where did I accuse anyone on here of 'quaint feelings.' That was a generalized point about those who want to identify with being native but not actually practice what Natives practiced and believed. Now you seem to be taking it personal in order to justify your rant against me.

I never said anything was not part of the present. I made a point about how much of it and in what manner it was part of the present if at all and whether being native (to anything) was more about practice and belief rather than about genes. Many native Americans are Native because of thier genes and have feelings of belonging to the people of the past but do not practice (maybe in a fasion that honors the past) or believe any of the myths. To me this is not really being Native since being Native is more about cultural practice and belief rather than just genes and remembrance. I never said all Natives do this - not once.

Where did I once denigrate your culture as being non-existant. You are not on Peyote are you? (that is a Joke).

As far as the Irish parallel - Like I said I am mostly European (genetically). Culturally though I do not identify with any European culture no matter how far back or recent - I do not look at my ancestors and think I am Irish and German becuase I had Irish or German blood in me. I am an American. Why would I want to go back and identify with the Celtic peoples and their practices and beliefs? And if I did I would not think I was Celtic unless I started to believe in all those (good and bad) Myths and practice all their (good and bad) ways of life on a daily basis - and if I am 1/2 Irish and 1/2 German haow is that going work. To me to be a Native culturally I would not intergrate or combine two seperate cultures particularly one that destroyed another nor would would I assume that I was if I only had 1/2, 1/8 or some other meaningless fraction like 1/256 - which apprently gets some into a tribe - this to me misses the whole point.

Anyway, I have no problem with what you personally want to do and I personally have no connection to the past (other than genes) to any European cultures no matter how many good things there were in those cultures that I like.

Let me ask you a question - If I wanted to become a Native American without any proof that I am genetically - could I? Could I join your tribe? Your answer will tell me alot.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:59 PM
 
31,990 posts, read 17,268,878 times
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Let me ask you a question - If I wanted to become a Native American without any proof that I am genetically - could I? Could I join your tribe? Your answer will tell me alot.
You answered your own question by side-stepping and misdirecting the topic away from your original post.

You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post

I have yet to find one African or Native American in my Ancestry yet my Genetics test says that I have 10% Sub-Saharan African, 6% East Asian, and 2% Native American (both the Asian and Native could be combined), and the rest European - and I look like 100% white.

I think your culture, language, and religion or philosophy define who you are more than shared genes. In this case most 100% Native Americans are not even Native Americans becausethey really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages.
Your sentence which begins with "In this case most 100%..." is incorrect, IMO, because you went on to say "they really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages." and I called you on it. Simple as that.

Now you want to play the misdirection game. That's cool. Because the OP begs the question of tribal enrollment which encompasses "pedigree", which is really an offshoot of the treaty phase of American history.

So please, make me laugh again with the:

<feigns innocence> Oh, why do you take it so personally? <angel eyes with angel wings> why, I never denigrated ...blah blah. I loved that part.

So, answer my question, how do you know "they" really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages?

The answer is simple, there are some who still speak the language and still practice the cultures of pre-european contact. BTW, I do love foggy mornings.

Now, if you want to bait and switch the topic to gentectic outcomes, then fine, start a new thread. I love biology and anthropology.

The use of peyote in the NAC is practiced by many southern plains tribal peoples including mine, so we (I) don't take it recreationally. But, if you want to, we can share a beer!
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