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Old 05-25-2010, 05:59 PM
 
5,495 posts, read 4,401,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _redbird_ View Post
You answered your own question by side-stepping and misdirecting the topic away from your original post.

You said:



Your sentence which begins with "In this case most 100%..." is incorrect, IMO, because you went on to say "they really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages." and I called you on it. Simple as that.

Now you want to play the misdirection game. That's cool. Because the OP begs the question of tribal enrollment which encompasses "pedigree", which is really an offshoot of the treaty phase of American history.

So please, make me laugh again with the:

<feigns innocence> Oh, why do you take it so personally? <angel eyes with angel wings> why, I never denigrated ...blah blah. I loved that part.

So, answer my question, how do you know "they" really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages?

The answer is simple, there are some who still speak the language and still practice the cultures of pre-european contact. BTW, I do love foggy mornings.

Now, if you want to bait and switch the topic to gentectic outcomes, then fine, start a new thread. I love biology and anthropology.

The use of peyote in the NAC is practiced by many southern plains tribal peoples including mine, so we (I) don't take it recreationally. But, if you want to, we can share a beer!
The 'In this case' phrase was in reference to what? It refered to this phrase which immediately preceded it - 'I think your [by 'your' I meant anyones culture not Native culture only] culture, language, and religion or philosophy define who you are more than shared genes.'

You see it was my opinion. The OP was using a genetic relationship as part of what defined them - and one that was 1/256 at that, this I thought was meaningless apart from the above points. Thats all. I never made such a broad sweeping generalization that all 100% native Americans do not keep their ancestral history - never - you did accuse me of that though.

So there is no bait and switch - you are just trying make something out of nothing and trying to pidgon hole me into some strawman in order to knock me down.

So to answer your question - how do I know 'they' do not practice... - is moot on two grounds 1) because it was based on the condition that my opinion was valid, and 2) because there are some that do not - it is just a fact - the 'they' refered to those who did not fall under my own condition.

By stating such things i do not know how I denegrate your culture?

Now that I answered your question why have not you answered mine in my previous post?
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Old 05-25-2010, 11:14 PM
 
1,530 posts, read 3,366,368 times
Reputation: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by studiobtm View Post
I'm 1/4th Cherokee and proud of it. And I think your post is pathetic.

Yes, most of the tribes were abused in some way or another - and Cherokees especially egregiously. But most of the tribes also abused Europeans in one way or another. There was plenty of evil to go round.

But the whole - they stole our land thing - spare me. We stole it from some other tribe who stole it from another ad nauseum. Do you really think we had a right to claim thousands of square miles for ourselves (I'm talking the Cherokee Nation here) and deny it to Europeans who were being treated little better than slaves in their mother lands? Suck it up - we were defeated by a superior culture.

If the roles had been reversed do you think native Americans would have been as... dare I say it, merciful as the Europeans? No, we would have enslaved them or completely liquidated them. A little further south and we would have eaten them. Rants like yours embarrass me.

It is what it is and it is now ancient history. Let's move on.

no your post is pathetic and a complete shame to the Cherokee people you "claim" to be from how dare you say the garbage your spewing out of your mouth! I AM A Cherokee a real one, and no that land was ours, and it was stolen from us, and as for the europeans being merciful on us? are you kidding me?! you have no knowledge of the Cherokee or Native Americans at all. They were so merciful to us that they kicked us off of our land took our farms and our homes and lived in them! making children and old people and all of them walk thousands of miles some with no shoes locked up at night in corrals like cattle.-ya real merciful. i dont need to write a history book here, but you need to pick one up and read it. your not a Cherokee no real Native person would say such bs. -your a fake

Last edited by jaada; 05-25-2010 at 11:34 PM..
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Old 05-26-2010, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Prescott Valley, Az (unfortunately still here)
2,551 posts, read 3,763,697 times
Reputation: 1521
I have 1/4 (25%), Cherokee. That I know for sure, through learning my family history last year.
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Old 05-29-2010, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Kingman AZ
15,371 posts, read 33,766,194 times
Reputation: 8976
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjh View Post
Some people are more special than others.
WELL....idnt that SPECiallll
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Old 06-03-2010, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,116,767 times
Reputation: 2028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
The Cherokee Nation is one of the largest Nations - if the above is true what % of people in the Nation are not 100% or even something like 1/256th?

Personally, this is all meaningless. The way people were described esp. if you looked white enough did not do justice to the true nature of your genetic history. I mean a person with 1/4 of Native American Ancestry could look 100% white and they would be noted so on any documents that people now refer to in order to see if they have any native ancestry.

I have yet to find one African or Native American in my Ancestry yet my Genetics test says that I have 10% Sub-Saharan African, 6% East Asian, and 2% Native American (both the Asian and Native could be combined), and the rest European - and I look like 100% white.

I think your culture, language, and religion or philosophy define who you are more than shared genes. In this case most 100% Native Americans are not even Native Americans because they really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages.

To me, if I found out I was 1/256 of something I would not care to the point of being registered with anything nor would I start to 'identify' with that somthing.

Do not get me wrong I enjoy the search and the history but for me it is not about an identity issue - I am an American - that is my culture no matter how much I feel quaint notions about European culture. I do not go to Europe and feel 'a connection' with 'my people' - they are not my people. I know this is probably because I am white and privileged (far from it) and all that jazz and people of other 'races' do not feel like they belong (justifiably so in many cases). That just means we have to continue to move towards that goal not retreat to any glorified selective past. I just do not know why we make such a particularized point about it - I am 1/4, 1/8, 1/512, part of the XYZ club, ect. ect. - I have always felt a connection - yeah right Oprah (she thought she was Zulu - NOT) If you got a ancestor that was unique relative to all others great -point it out without all the subjective and absract notions. To me it only continues our dichotomy as humans - not that it cant be noted or spoken of but not just in the way so many do.

Why don't we all work to become a strong American Nation and not a bunch of particularized tribes fighting with one another?

Just my thoughts
To preface: I am Comanche. I'm enrolled, grew up Comanche, can speak Comanche and know my people's ways and dances. Lawton, Oklahoma baby! I also "look like one" which, of course, makes me instantly incredibly handsome....aayyye. I had to get that out of the way so you understand my point of view.

I will agree with you on certain points.

"I think your culture, language, and religion or philosophy define who you are more than shared genes."

Agreed! There are a lot of folks out there who have "NDN blood", but have absolutely no idea what being NDN means. Having the blood is irrelevant to a degree if you don't know anything about your tribe other than what can be gleened from a book. This is how wannabes and twinkies (NewAge mystical crystal waving types) come about and those of us who did grow up NDN generally don't like them. Just being honest.

However....

There are many genetically NDN people out there that got displaced from their Nation...and I don't just mean 150 or more years ago either. Until the passage of the Indian Child and Welfare Act of 1978 (ICWA), NDN children were being adopted out to non-NDNs at a rather alarming rate. In the 1950s and 1960s, the Indian Adoption Project placed hundreds of Native American children with white parents. This was devastating to the nations and furthered Washington's aims to "terminate" the Nations. The effects of this are still being felt by many tribes today. The ICWA reversed that. These adopted children had no chance to learn what it meant to be a member of their nation. Many of these people do look to remake that connection and they should be encouraged to do so.

"In this case most 100% Native Americans are not even Native Americans because they really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages."

What exactly do you mean by this? When you say "practice the cultures of the past", are you suggesting that the people are not living as they did back then? If that is what you mean, then the answer to that is "of course not!" NDN cultures, just like any other culture, evolve. We do not remain static. NDN cultures change due to outside influences just like everyone else. Because we no longer go around wearing buckskins, living in tipis, hunting buffalo and raiding for horses does not make us less Comanche. We are still very much Comanche. Same for all the other Nations.

Is the Englishman of today the same as his Briton ancestors and practicing those old ways? Is there a reason that the American of 2010 are no longer wearing knickers, tricorn hats, powdered wigs and living via subsistance farming? Of course..American culture evolved. The same is true of NDN cultures. Just because a lot of us speak English, doesn't mean we are no longer Comanche, Lakotas, Cheyenne...whatever. BTW, a lot of us still can speak our language. Many nations are also in the process of reinvigorating their languages with programs especially aimed at the young people. I think as long as these programs persist, we will see more and more people who can speak their tribal language. Would the Comanches of yesteryear recognize Comanches of 2010? Maybe not. But then again, the Britons would not recognize the modern Englishman.

BTW, if you want to see Comanches being Comanches, just come to Walters, OK in the third weekend in July. Heck, you'll even get to see some Kiowas there...we let them hang with us...right Red Bird?....aaaayyyee.

"Why don't we all work to become a strong American Nation and not a bunch of particularized tribes fighting with one another?"

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, But personally, I wish to remain a Comanche. I love my people and culture. I see no reason to be anything else. That doesn't mean that I cannot also be an American. As a 20 year vet of the USAF and a network design engineer for a major corporation, I think that I've shown that I can do both quite easily. Sometimes we call this living with a foot in two world's...one the in red and one in the white. This, again, makes us no less NDN. We have evolved culturally.

I think I understand what you were trying to say with this statement:

"To me, if I found out I was 1/256 of something I would not care to the point of being registered with anything nor would I start to 'identify' with that somthing."

IOW, just having some blood don't make you one, right? I would agree. I have thought long on the question of "What is an NDN"? To me there are three parts:

1) Genetics. To be an NDN, you pretty much have to have NDN genetics. No way around that. But that isn't enough. Let's say I liked Japanese culture. If I went to Japan and claimed to be one of them based on that, well, I am sure they would not see it that way. No matter how many karate lessons I took, no matter how poorly I wore a kimini, no matter how much sushi I ingested, no matter how many Japanese lessons I took where I got no further than counting to 10 or being able to ask where the bathroom is...that would not make me Japanese.

2) Family. To be NDN, it helps to have an NDN family meaning those who know the culture. Family sustains us as NDN people, especially those elders. Funny thing, when people go into NDN country claiming to be one of the people, often the question of "Who's your family" will be asked. This isn't because people are questioning someone's veracity, but rather, they just want to know. Especially if they want to date you...aayyye. They want to make sure they aren't related...hehe. NDN communities are pretty small communities even in the largest tribes. Everyone knows everyone or at least will know who your family is.

3) Community recognition. There are some people who cannot get enrolled for one reason or another. However, because the people have recognized them as being one of them, they are one. But the kicker is, the people decide...not someone who found out they have some blood then declare themsleves one of the people. That's just the way it works, at least in Comanche Nation and I'm pretty sure in the other Nations as well. Never confuse enrollment with community recognition...they are two different things.

Thanks for listening.

Last edited by Fullback32; 06-03-2010 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 06-03-2010, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,131 posts, read 26,255,168 times
Reputation: 6815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
What exactly do you mean by this? When you say "practice the cultures of the past", are you suggesting that the people are not living as they did back then? If that is what you mean, then the answer to that is "of course not!" NDN cultures, just like any other culture, evolve. We do not remain static. NDN cultures change due to outside influences just like everyone else. Because we no longer go around wearing buckskins, living in tipis, hunting buffalo and raiding for horses does not make us less Comanche. We are still very much Comanche. Same for all the other Nations.

Is the Englishman of today the same as his Briton ancestors and practicing those old ways? Is there a reason that the American of 2010 are no longer wearing knickers, tricorn hats, powdered wigs and living via subsistance farming? Of course..American culture evolved. The same is true of NDN cultures. Just because a lot of us speak English, doesn't mean we are no longer Comanche, Lakotas, Cheyenne...whatever. BTW, a lot of us still can speak our language. Many nations are also in the process of reinvigorating their languages with programs especially aimed at the young people. I think as long as these programs persist, we will see more and more people who can speak their tribal language. Would the Comanches of yesteryear recognize Comanches of 2010? Maybe not. But then again, the Britons would not recognize the modern Englishman.

BTW, if you want to see Comanches being Comanches, just come to Walters, OK in the third weekend in July. Heck, you'll even get to see some Kiowas there...we let them hang with us...right Red Bird?....aaaayyyee. .
Letting the Kiowa hang with you goes a long way back. Thankfully one thing we (sons of Anglo and Comanche) no longer practice is killing each other. I have no Indian blood but I do have an ancestor killed by Comanches as he was trying to return to MO from Taos.
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:30 PM
 
1,530 posts, read 3,366,368 times
Reputation: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
To preface: I am Comanche. I'm enrolled, grew up Comanche, can speak Comanche and know my people's ways and dances. Lawton, Oklahoma baby! I also "look like one" which, of course, makes me instantly incredibly handsome....aayyye. I had to get that out of the way so you understand my point of view.

I will agree with you on certain points.

"I think your culture, language, and religion or philosophy define who you are more than shared genes."

Agreed! There are a lot of folks out there who have "NDN blood", but have absolutely no idea what being NDN means. Having the blood is irrelevant to a degree if you don't know anything about your tribe other than what can be gleened from a book. This is how wannabes and twinkies (NewAge mystical crystal waving types) come about and those of us who did grow up NDN generally don't like them. Just being honest.

However....

There are many genetically NDN people out there that got displaced from their Nation...and I don't just mean 150 or more years ago either. Until the passage of the Indian Child and Welfare Act of 1978 (ICWA), NDN children were being adopted out to non-NDNs at a rather alarming rate. In the 1950s and 1960s, the Indian Adoption Project placed hundreds of Native American children with white parents. This was devastating to the nations and furthered Washington's aims to "terminate" the Nations. The effects of this are still being felt by many tribes today. The ICWA reversed that. These adopted children had no chance to learn what it meant to be a member of their nation. Many of these people do look to remake that connection and they should be encouraged to do so.

"In this case most 100% Native Americans are not even Native Americans because they really do not practice the cultures of the past or speak the languages."

What exactly do you mean by this? When you say "practice the cultures of the past", are you suggesting that the people are not living as they did back then? If that is what you mean, then the answer to that is "of course not!" NDN cultures, just like any other culture, evolve. We do not remain static. NDN cultures change due to outside influences just like everyone else. Because we no longer go around wearing buckskins, living in tipis, hunting buffalo and raiding for horses does not make us less Comanche. We are still very much Comanche. Same for all the other Nations.

Is the Englishman of today the same as his Briton ancestors and practicing those old ways? Is there a reason that the American of 2010 are no longer wearing knickers, tricorn hats, powdered wigs and living via subsistance farming? Of course..American culture evolved. The same is true of NDN cultures. Just because a lot of us speak English, doesn't mean we are no longer Comanche, Lakotas, Cheyenne...whatever. BTW, a lot of us still can speak our language. Many nations are also in the process of reinvigorating their languages with programs especially aimed at the young people. I think as long as these programs persist, we will see more and more people who can speak their tribal language. Would the Comanches of yesteryear recognize Comanches of 2010? Maybe not. But then again, the Britons would not recognize the modern Englishman.

BTW, if you want to see Comanches being Comanches, just come to Walters, OK in the third weekend in July. Heck, you'll even get to see some Kiowas there...we let them hang with us...right Red Bird?....aaaayyyee.

"Why don't we all work to become a strong American Nation and not a bunch of particularized tribes fighting with one another?"

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, But personally, I wish to remain a Comanche. I love my people and culture. I see no reason to be anything else. That doesn't mean that I cannot also be an American. As a 20 year vet of the USAF and a network design engineer for a major corporation, I think that I've shown that I can do both quite easily. Sometimes we call this living with a foot in two world's...one the in red and one in the white. This, again, makes us no less NDN. We have evolved culturally.

I think I understand what you were trying to say with this statement:

"To me, if I found out I was 1/256 of something I would not care to the point of being registered with anything nor would I start to 'identify' with that somthing."

IOW, just having some blood don't make you one, right? I would agree. I have thought long on the question of "What is an NDN"? To me there are three parts:

1) Genetics. To be an NDN, you pretty much have to have NDN genetics. No way around that. But that isn't enough. Let's say I liked Japanese culture. If I went to Japan and claimed to be one of them based on that, well, I am sure they would not see it that way. No matter how many karate lessons I took, no matter how poorly I wore a kimini, no matter how much sushi I ingested, no matter how many Japanese lessons I took where I got no further than counting to 10 or being able to ask where the bathroom is...that would not make me Japanese.

2) Family. To be NDN, it helps to have an NDN family meaning those who know the culture. Family sustains us as NDN people, especially those elders. Funny thing, when people go into NDN country claiming to be one of the people, often the question of "Who's your family" will be asked. This isn't because people are questioning someone's veracity, but rather, they just want to know. Especially if they want to date you...aayyye. They want to make sure they aren't related...hehe. NDN communities are pretty small communities even in the largest tribes. Everyone knows everyone or at least will know who your family is.

3) Community recognition. There are some people who cannot get enrolled for one reason or another. However, because the people have recognized them as being one of them, they are one. But the kicker is, the people decide...not someone who found out they have some blood then declare themsleves one of the people. That's just the way it works, at least in Comanche Nation and I'm pretty sure in the other Nations as well. Never confuse enrollment with community recognition...they are two different things.

Thanks for listening.
This is a really good post-
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:45 PM
 
6 posts, read 10,287 times
Reputation: 11
How do you get a card and what kind of proof would you need?
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Old 06-05-2010, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,131 posts, read 26,255,168 times
Reputation: 6815
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckyjonespecos View Post
How do you get a card and what kind of proof would you need?
If you have to ask that question I'm thinking you probably wouldn't qualify. It's not like signing up for social security or disability. Unless you have a bond with a tribe you shouldn't worry about it.
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Old 07-04-2010, 06:44 AM
 
68 posts, read 184,663 times
Reputation: 54
In my book you'd be 100% white.

If we were talking money here that number wouldn't even add up to one penny.
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