U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-15-2010, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,321 posts, read 2,746,799 times
Reputation: 1464

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
I added to my previous post to detail exactly that. Some of the southern counties in West Virginia were pro-Confederacy, but they were far outnumbered by all the northern counties that were pro-Union.

Not exactly true. West Virginia was created by some brilliant, opportunisitic political maneuvering by some Union supporters in Wheeling. Most of what is West Virginia actually supported Richmond.

The state constitution of West Virginia is one of the few remaining state constitutions written by former Confederates. The original Wheeling constitution was destroyed in 1872.

West Virginia - The Other History

And West Virginians were no more against slavery than east Virginians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._West_Virginia

There is a new book of essays just published called "Reconstructing Appalachia". From the Ken Fones-Miller essay "A House Redivided", pg. 239-
Quote:
The founders of the new state ultimately could not escape the Old Dominion's legacy. New statehood leaders confronted a population that did not share their outlook.
Attached Thumbnails
Differences within the South-wvsecession.jpg  

Last edited by Bobilee; 07-15-2010 at 09:33 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-15-2010, 09:31 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,117,165 times
Reputation: 5742
This was a very civil and well-thought post, Bham, even if I disagree with with some of it. So let me just rejoin...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bham251 View Post
People are very inclusive with what they consider "The South". I think you did a good job, but being from Alabama I can tell you most real Southerners don't consider some of those areas "The South." Most of us consider the southeast region below Tennessee but including VA and WV.
Yes, people are. Inclusive, that is. And for good reasons in many ways. After all, as you say below, it is ludicrous to to suggest Colorado, Kansas or Pennsylvania are part of the South (but keep in mind, a person can be a Southerner and still live in a non-Southern state via original birthright).

Where we probably part company -- and yes, I confess to getting irritated (not at you personally of course, but the general genre) -- is when some from the Deep South ("Deep South purists" as we say! LOL), truly believe the fact they are from the Deep South are credentials enough to be the final authority on the matter of just which states are "Southern." (let me say again, my ancestral roots are very deep in Mississippi and Alabama, so some of those I argue with are distant kinfolk, fer gosh sakes! )

What is a "real Southerner", as you define? According to the most extensive and in-depth study ever done, this is the result of 14 seperate polls, spanning 7 years, and involving some 17.000 respondents. It was done out of the Southern Studies arena of the U. of NC at Chapel Hill.
**********************
Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16)
*********************

Are those states wherin a clear majority (generally the Old Confederate plus Oklahoma, Kentucky and -- right close -- West Virginia) wrong in asserting they are in the South and are Southerners? If so, by what measure and/or criteria?

Quote:
I think people need to realize that a place having southern ideals and speaking with a southern accent can be found anywhere in this country. These ideals are things learned and taught they are not genetic and can be found anywhere even the accent. The accent a lot of the time comes from living in a rural area in my opinion.
Of course they/it can. Just as there can be found northern accents in the South. And Southern Baptist Churches on the west coast. But point being, there are things which generally (historically and culturally) exist with the southeastern and Southcentral parts of the country to a degree which are much more concentrated and long-lasting and enduring there from early on than any other part of the country. This includes Southern American English being the norm, religious and political pattern, among many others. And last but not least, a self-identification with the South.

Quote:
I personally do not consider Texas part of the South, and some of those areas on the map are a little bit too North. But what is with everyone wanting to say they're from the South? Does it give some sense of inclusion or something? I hate when I hear people say they from the South and I ask them where and they say Colorado.
And that is fine if that is your opinion about Texas. It doesn't hurt my feelings nor offend me in the least. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it. The roots of my disagreement (and annoyance) trace back -- as stated earlier -- the notion that being from the Deep South bestows the unquestioned authority to define the South itself.

If the term "The South" had originated with the Deep South, then I could probably better understand the logic behind such a notion. But it didn't. It wasn't until around and after 1830 there become a true "Southern ethos", and idea of "The South". The Deep South states had no more inherent claim to it than did the Upper or western South states. When Texas joined the Union, it was just naturally considered to be part of the "South". And every single memoir and bits of history of that day and age confirm it. There were no distinctions made between the various sub-regions in that sense.

So where it ever came about that the label "The South" belongs exclusively to the Deep South is a phenomenon which is compartively recent in application. In fact, on a related tangent, how many know that the original moniker "Empire State of the South" did not refer to Georgia, but to Texas?

Quote:
But this is just my opinion, and I'm being more exclusive and considering what most of you have said is the Deep South.
And in the final analysis, it all comes down to opinion. There is no "right" answer at all when it comes to this subject.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-15-2010, 09:45 PM
 
6 posts, read 17,235 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyJohnWilson View Post
um, you cant find southern accents and southern ideals anywhere in the country. you can find them in the south. thats it. and yes, this map includes way too much of ohio and indiana with the south but thats because those areas DONT have southern accents or values. like flyingwriter said, go to rural minnesota and compare the values and the accents.

and you consider virginia and west virginia the south, but not kentucky or tennessee (and north carolina maybe, its not below tennessee?). thats seems strange. all these states are pretty similar. especially KY, TN, VA, and southern WV. dont see how you could justify including some and not the other
I understand what you're saying, and I wasn't really clear when I said TN I guess, but I'm including TN,SC,NC. I meant below the northern TN,NC line. I do disagree with you about values. Southern values are not so different from what normal conservatives anywhere around the country have. Yes they are a bit more exaggerated, but I think if you go to almost any town you will find a place where people consider themselves conservative and they attend church, respect people, have strong political feelings that are pretty conservative and many other things. I don't know what is so different about Southern ideals. I mean look at the Tea Party Movement. These people are everywhere not just the South. But I understand everyone else's argument. Like I said this is my opinion, and most people do not agree with me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-15-2010, 09:56 PM
 
6 posts, read 17,235 times
Reputation: 14
@TexasReb

I definitely see what you are saying, and see how I may sound like a snooty Southerner trying to pick people who are in the club and who are not. This was not my intent. I just find it somewhat ludicrous some of the states that people say. I'm definitely not trying to be stuck up. Many people consider the South to be an ignorant region and behind the times, so some people might say it's nothing to even talk about or be picky about.

I also understand your annoyance. I'm just thankful you didn't chew my head off especially since you're from Texas. And in my opinion Texas does have Southern ideals and the accent, but the state is big enough and also has that cowboy western identity that makes it its own distinct place in my opinion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-15-2010, 10:03 PM
 
871 posts, read 1,957,441 times
Reputation: 596
Quote:
Originally Posted by bham251 View Post
I understand what you're saying, and I wasn't really clear when I said TN I guess, but I'm including TN,SC,NC. I meant below the northern TN,NC line. I do disagree with you about values. Southern values are not so different from what normal conservatives anywhere around the country have. Yes they are a bit more exaggerated, but I think if you go to almost any town you will find a place where people consider themselves conservative and they attend church, respect people, have strong political feelings that are pretty conservative and many other things. I don't know what is so different about Southern ideals. I mean look at the Tea Party Movement. These people are everywhere not just the South. But I understand everyone else's argument. Like I said this is my opinion, and most people do not agree with me.
well then youve never been to kentucky, because kentucky and tennessee are more like each other than they are like any other states in the country. what do you think is so magical about tennessee's northern border? especially since you include west virginia this seems like a strange definition as eastern kentucky and southern west virginia are very much alike, along with east tennessee

and if you define "southern values" as just conservatism then thats everywhere. but there is more to it it than that, although its hard to describe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-15-2010, 10:58 PM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
13,220 posts, read 17,960,186 times
Reputation: 14658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobilee View Post
Not exactly true. West Virginia was created by some brilliant, opportunisitic political maneuvering by some Union supporters in Wheeling. Most of what is West Virginia actually supported Richmond.

The state constitution of West Virginia is one of the few remaining state constitutions written by former Confederates. The original Wheeling constitution was destroyed in 1872.

West Virginia - The Other History

And West Virginians were no more against slavery than east Virginians.

History of slavery in West Virginia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a new book of essays just published called "Reconstructing Appalachia". From the Ken Fones-Miller essay "A House Redivided", pg. 239-
I stand corrected -- somewhat. Notice how none of the counties adjacent to Pennsylvania supported secession.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-16-2010, 01:21 PM
 
2,758 posts, read 4,922,956 times
Reputation: 1114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bham251 View Post
People are very inclusive with what they consider "The South". I think you did a good job, but being from Alabama I can tell you most real Southerners don't consider some of those areas "The South." Most of us consider the southeast region below Tennessee but including VA and WV. I think people need to realize that a place having southern ideals and speaking with a southern accent can be found anywhere in this country. These ideals are things learned and taught they are not genetic and can be found anywhere even the accent. The accent a lot of the time comes from living in a rural area in my opinion.

I personally do not consider Texas part of the South, and some of those areas on the map are a little bit too North. But what is with everyone wanting to say they're from the South?

But this is just my opinion, and I'm being more exclusive and considering what most of you have said is the Deep South.
I don't know, I'm just as much a "real Southerner" as you are and I see the Southeast as VA, NC, SC, GA, and FLA(. The Piedmont runs through most of the Southeast and some of that spill over into Alabama. The Piedmont Atlantic region is young but I think it should and will separate itself from the rest of the South (like the other areas are doing). Texas? I have always viewed it as a Southern state and have never heard people exclude it, just on this site. Actually, when I lived in TN, I heard a Vol fan say playfully to a UT fan something like "Thank us for that team you have down there". I didn't take TN history so I was a little confused but I heard his explanation about how a lot of Tennesseans bought up land there along with other Southerners back in the day. They have other influences but there's also some Southern traits there too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2010, 01:34 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,117,165 times
Reputation: 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Summers View Post
I don't know, I'm just as much a "real Southerner" as you are and I see the Southeast as VA, NC, SC, GA, and FLA(. The Piedmont runs through most of the Southeast and some of that spill over into Alabama. The Piedmont Atlantic region is young but I think it should and will separate itself from the rest of the South (like the other areas are doing). Texas? I have always viewed it as a Southern state and have never heard people exclude it, just on this site. Actually, when I lived in TN, I heard a Vol fan say playfully to a UT fan something like "Thank us for that team you have down there". I didn't take TN history so I was a little confused but I heard his explanation about how a lot of Tennesseans bought up land there along with other Southerners back in the day. They have other influences but there's also some Southern traits there too.
LOL That was a good story, Scott...and true in many ways.

I don't have the exact percentage figures available, but Texas was mostly settled by Tenneseans, with Alabama a very close second. Mississippi ran a respectable third, with Georgia not too far behind.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-22-2010, 10:04 PM
 
2,331 posts, read 3,806,644 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Summers View Post
I don't know, I'm just as much a "real Southerner" as you are and I see the Southeast as VA, NC, SC, GA, and FLA(. The Piedmont runs through most of the Southeast and some of that spill over into Alabama. The Piedmont Atlantic region is young but I think it should and will separate itself from the rest of the South (like the other areas are doing). Texas? I have always viewed it as a Southern state and have never heard people exclude it, just on this site. Actually, when I lived in TN, I heard a Vol fan say playfully to a UT fan something like "Thank us for that team you have down there". I didn't take TN history so I was a little confused but I heard his explanation about how a lot of Tennesseans bought up land there along with other Southerners back in the day. They have other influences but there's also some Southern traits there too.
And Maryland!!!!!!!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-24-2010, 06:05 AM
 
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,085 posts, read 11,454,095 times
Reputation: 1942
I didn't read through this entire long thread so I don't know if it was mentioned, but Houston isn't part of the Deep South. It just really, really isn't. I grew up in the heart of East Texas, which can arguably be considered Deep South much more so than Houston, and moved to Southeast Texas later. Houston does have some Southern attributes and heritage, but it is not in the Deep South and I don't know any Houstonians who think it is. Culturally, East Texas and Southeast Texas--of which Houston IS a part-- share some similarities, but are overall different. Houston has long had too much outside influence-- including from transplanted Yankees, the Gulf Coast, Louisiana, Mexico, and Texas in general-- to be considered Deep South. And this isn't a recent phenomenon, but the whole story of its history, not just the parts people who claim it is Deep South are picking out and choosing. http://www.houstonculture.org/

Last edited by houstoner; 07-24-2010 at 06:41 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top