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Old 07-12-2010, 03:27 PM
 
Location: The land of sugar... previously Houston and Austin
5,429 posts, read 13,175,496 times
Reputation: 3642

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Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
Dont forget: making vague and flawed statements about Houston having more in common with Dallas doesnt count as evidence either..lol
None of the evidence is vague or flawed. The evidence was all in the demographics. Not vague, and numbers are easy to find.

Races in Dallas:
Hispanic (35.6%)
White Non-Hispanic (34.6%)
Black (25.9%)
Other race (17.2%)
Two or more races (2.7%)
American Indian (1.0%)
Asian Indian (0.6%)
Vietnamese (0.6%)
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Dallas...#ixzz0tVOw0qxn

Races in Houston:
Hispanic (37.4%)
White Non-Hispanic (30.8%)
Black (25.3%)
Other race (16.5%)
Two or more races (3.1%)
Vietnamese (1.7%)
Chinese (1.2%)
Asian Indian (1.0%)
American Indian (0.8%)
Other Asian (0.6%)
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Housto...#ixzz0tVP4WQxd

Median income levels are similar, education levels are similar, etc. Must I go look all of this up for you too? Or will you just say it's all flawed?

Certainly more similar than Houston is to New Orleans or Mobile or (insert other Gulf Coast city).

Your "evidence" consists of... well, I'm still not clear on what it is other than your opinion (with no real reasoning given for it) and some mention of the Black numbers.

No maps (I provided other maps), no links... nothing. Since you think you are so right, what IS IT about Houston that you think it is part of the deep south? You still haven't said. Having little pockets, or bordering that region or being near Beaumont or Huntsville... how is that "evidence" any less vague or flawed than what I have presented?

Just admit you don't have anything to back up your opinion, and I'll respect it as such. That's all.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:46 PM
 
Location: The land of sugar... previously Houston and Austin
5,429 posts, read 13,175,496 times
Reputation: 3642
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialmog View Post
I am thinking on this debate with Houston, isn't there particuar areas of the metro that are one way or the other? Basically it is a split metro. Also that SMU map has in it Non-Conforming metro areas, maybe that could be a good descriptor for Houston in this case.
Chambers, San Jacinto, and Liberty Counties would probably be. Harris County (Houston) would only have a few pockets (like wards on the southeast side, or Channelview for a more white area.) Montgomery County might have some... but definitely not The Woodlands, it's been saturated with people who have relocated from the northeast and California.

Montrose, The Heights, Museum District, and similar notable areas of central Houston are probably socially and culturally more similar to somewhere like Austin. Memorial/Uptown and River Oaks will be more similar to the wealthy areas of central Dallas. Southwest side areas like Harwin and Bellaire (the street, not the city) are almost like another country.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,509 posts, read 28,167,283 times
Reputation: 7598
I think that for most of its history Houston was as deep south as you can get. Right down to the cotton plantations.

But over the last 30 years Houston has swayed more and more away from the southern image as its economy and demographics changed
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:05 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 2,117,065 times
Reputation: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK123 View Post
Chambers, San Jacinto, and Liberty Counties would probably be. Harris County (Houston) would only have a few pockets (like wards on the southeast side, or Channelview for a more white area.) Montgomery County might have some... but definitely not The Woodlands, it's been saturated with people who have relocated from the northeast and California.

Montrose, The Heights, Museum District, and similar notable areas of central Houston are probably socially and culturally more similar to somewhere like Austin. Memorial/Uptown and River Oaks will be more similar to the wealthy areas of central Dallas. Southwest side areas like Harwin and Bellaire (the street, not the city) are almost like another country.
I was thinking certain suburbs might have a different regional culture, this tends to be the case when a city is near a cultural boundary. It seems a lot of this depends on how broad of scope the term Deep South is. If Houston is a part of in than it would include at least most of Florida and all of Louisana ignoring vast differences. It would generally include all areas of the South outside of the Appalacians and Ozarks along with maybe the Tennessee river valley. (The former two being oddly similar)

The issue is places like Southern Louisiana have one to two unique cultural regions that differ widely from the Deep South so a broad-based defiination causes issues with this. Also is there differences in the Deep South depending on East or West of the Mississippi River? With the river it is a place where the Deep South does extend Northward significantly due to factors rooted in geography.
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:07 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,229,152 times
Reputation: 1819
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK123 View Post
None of the evidence is vague or flawed. The evidence was all in the demographics. Not vague, and numbers are easy to find.

Races in Dallas:
Hispanic (35.6%)
White Non-Hispanic (34.6%)
Black (25.9%)
Other race (17.2%)
Two or more races (2.7%)
American Indian (1.0%)
Asian Indian (0.6%)
Vietnamese (0.6%)
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Dallas...#ixzz0tVOw0qxn

Races in Houston:
Hispanic (37.4%)
White Non-Hispanic (30.8%)
Black (25.3%)
Other race (16.5%)
Two or more races (3.1%)
Vietnamese (1.7%)
Chinese (1.2%)
Asian Indian (1.0%)
American Indian (0.8%)
Other Asian (0.6%)
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Housto...#ixzz0tVP4WQxd

Median income levels are similar, education levels are similar, etc. Must I go look all of this up for you too? Or will you just say it's all flawed?

Certainly more similar than Houston is to New Orleans or Mobile or (insert other Gulf Coast city).

Your "evidence" consists of... well, I'm still not clear on what it is other than your opinion (with no real reasoning given for it) and some mention of the Black numbers.

No maps (I provided other maps), no links... nothing. Since you think you are so right, what IS IT about Houston that you think it is part of the deep south? You still haven't said. Having little pockets, or bordering that region or being near Beaumont or Huntsville... how is that "evidence" any less vague or flawed than what I have presented?

Just admit you don't have anything to back up your opinion, and I'll respect it as such. That's all.
I never said I think Im so right...i said that I think Houston is in the Deep south...you dont...it is what it is....jeez Louise youre a hotheaded, defensive lil fella..lol

But more importantly, this is incredibly interesting to me: do you seriously think that anyone on the internet, (not just me), would be incapable of finding evidence to support whatever they want it to support online?

surely, you dont think that posting links or maps (some of which actually DO depict Houston in the Deep south), means that any conclusions can be extracted from them...I could very easily post a map right now, that depicts Houston as a clearly demarcated deep south city..but the difference between us is that I know that link wars are only circular, regarding geographic regions. The criteria that I use, will only be disputed by you as unreliable, as you obviously feel that your criteria should be most heavily considered.

For instance, the flaw in your logic, from my perspective is that you seem to be asserting that a high black population is anything more than a loose correlation to parts of the deep south...You can clearly research for yourself and find that, even in the deep south, some areas have high black populations, while others dont. so that becomes another flawed, unreliable criteria in my eyes.-

I even said that percentage wise, Houston doesnt have a majority black population (which not all areas of the deep south have anyway)... never even disputed that....Its as if you think that being a statistical outlier of your criteria automatically precludes a city from being in one region or the other. In that case, N.O. wouldnt be in the deep south as it has too many catholics...Niether would coastal mississippi by that criteria...And because Atlanta has a high gay population, neither would it..

There are just too many inconsistencies in those criteria for them to be truly reliable beyond drawing a loose correlation between a city and its respective region by my standards...but hey, thats what you choose to rely on as your basis for your opinion, so be it. I dont begrudge you that.

Just admit that your "evidence" will always be based on cherry picked criteria that have little merit when placed in context. ..lol

Last edited by solytaire; 07-12-2010 at 04:17 PM..
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Underneath the Pecan Tree
15,989 posts, read 30,677,759 times
Reputation: 7280
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialmog View Post
I was thinking certain suburbs might have a different regional culture, this tends to be the case when a city is near a cultural boundary. It seems a lot of this depends on how broad of scope the term Deep South is. If Houston is a part of in than it would include at least most of Florida and all of Louisana ignoring vast differences. It would generally include all areas of the South outside of the Appalacians and Ozarks along with maybe the Tennessee river valley. (The former two being oddly similar)

The issue is places like Southern Louisiana have one to two unique cultural regions that differ widely from the Deep South so a broad-based defiination causes issues with this. Also is there differences in the Deep South depending on East or West of the Mississippi River? With the river it is a place where the Deep South does extend Northward significantly due to factors rooted in geography.
The difference is; Florida and Texas aren't considered deep south as of today due to outside influences coming in and diluting the southern culture. In the media; Texas is referred to as southwestern. Texas is Texas imo and to consistently debate what it is is crazy due to how large the stage is and how it arguable encompasses about 3 to 4 different regions.
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:38 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,229,152 times
Reputation: 1819
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialmog View Post
I was thinking certain suburbs might have a different regional culture, this tends to be the case when a city is near a cultural boundary. It seems a lot of this depends on how broad of scope the term Deep South is. If Houston is a part of in than it would include at least most of Florida and all of Louisana ignoring vast differences. It would generally include all areas of the South outside of the Appalacians and Ozarks along with maybe the Tennessee river valley. (The former two being oddly similar)

The issue is places like Southern Louisiana have one to two unique cultural regions that differ widely from the Deep South so a broad-based defiination causes issues with this. Also is there differences in the Deep South depending on East or West of the Mississippi River? With the river it is a place where the Deep South does extend Northward significantly due to factors rooted in geography.

This is how I would describe my opinion on the matter of Deep south territory. As it happens, I do think that north Florida and all of Louisiana are the deep south...Urban vs. Rural areas will always be a dilemma..but, in general I do think that all of Louisiana and most of Florida are the deep south.

Good synopsis though...even though southern Louisiana is different than the stereotypical deep south, it has the same issues, economy, and even some of the same history as other areas of the deep south (outside of urban areas).

Personally, I just recognize Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans as what they are - Unique urban areas in a deep south region...to me, that doesnt exclude them from the region, but just acknowledges that they do have peculiarities that distinguish them from the rural deep south areas that they sit within.
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:37 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 2,117,065 times
Reputation: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by jluke65780 View Post
The difference is; Florida and Texas aren't considered deep south as of today due to outside influences coming in and diluting the southern culture. In the media; Texas is referred to as southwestern. Texas is Texas imo and to consistently debate what it is is crazy due to how large the stage is and how it arguable encompasses about 3 to 4 different regions.
The same can be said for a growing area of the Atlantic Coast states from Georgia to Virginia for similar reasons.

With Texas, it is one of two states that have intersections of three regions with varying influences making a mishmash of culture between Southern,Southwestern, and Plains. (Missouri is the other one with areas that mix Midwestern, Southern, and Plains) Texas also has the added issue of an influx of people further changing the culture. My guess is that whatever it is described it should be noted that this is likely to change greatly in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
This is how I would describe my opinion on the matter of Deep south territory. As it happens, I do think that north Florida and all of Louisiana are the deep south...Urban vs. Rural areas will always be a dilemma..but, in general I do think that all of Louisiana and most of Florida are the deep south.

Good synopsis though...even though southern Louisiana is different than the stereotypical deep south, it has the same issues, economy, and even some of the same history as other areas of the deep south (outside of urban areas).

Personally, I just recognize Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans as what they are - Unique urban areas in a deep south region...to me, that doesnt exclude them from the region, but just acknowledges that they do have peculiarities that distinguish them from the rural deep south areas that they sit within.
A good way to deal with this is the Broad Deep South region but mark subregions that highlight particular variations. I am thinking there is two macroregions of the South that could be descibed as Upland and Lowland South (The divide is closely aligned to the coastal plain boundaries which influenced various factors) with an intermediate zone of the Piedmont. Then each macroregion can be divided in subregions highlighting the various differences between them.

The rural/urban differences are a tricky issue and the South seems to have it the worst due to growing numbers of cities having large influx of migrants. (The other area where this is tricky is Lower Midwest) Another divide I see in most areas is coastal/inland as well where the coast has a different culture than the inland, though this is understandable due to historical factors along with different lifestyles and with a lot of the Gulf Coast the influence of Catholicism.
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Underneath the Pecan Tree
15,989 posts, read 30,677,759 times
Reputation: 7280
Well the Deep south is really just another way of saying the Lower South or Cotton States. All the deep south states were huge in the cotton industry. The thing with Texas though is the western parts share little similarities; culturally and historically with the south. That is why Texas isn't consider southern.
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:33 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,113,590 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by jluke65780 View Post
Well the Deep south is really just another way of saying the Lower South or Cotton States. All the deep south states were huge in the cotton industry. The thing with Texas though is the western parts share little similarities; culturally and historically with the south. That is why Texas isn't consider southern.
Gotta quibble a bit, Jluke. True, western Texas shares very little in the way of topographical similarities...but quite a bit in terms of historical and cultural ones! Much more than with the true West (as defined by the Census Bureau).

Generally, most of those who discount Texas as Southern are the Deep South purists...but some of them also discount Louisiana, the Carolinas and Tennessee! LOL

But who cares what they think?

Seriously though, as you brought up, even back when Texas was mostly a frontier and being settled, it was cotton that was pure king. The western movies of early Hollywood have imparted the notion that cattle and cowboys were the norm in Texas, when it fact it wasn't even close. In the days prior to the "Civil War" Texas was a pure Lower South cotton state. Its yield per acre was easily the most productive in the South. This remained so for many years afterwards (and probably still does...as Texas is the largest cotton producer still today).

Far and away, the average Texan in the days when Texas was a majority rural state was not a cowboy or rancher, but a small farmer (tenant farming was huge in Texas) and the staple was cotton.

Last edited by TexasReb; 07-12-2010 at 07:52 PM..
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