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Old 07-19-2010, 03:45 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 2,118,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
Nope, not even.
You are right on that, actually in terms of St. Louis it seems there is a lot of odd features that seem unique to itself that really isn't found too often elsewhere. It likely has to do with its history and being close to large cultural fault lines, this also seems to be common among other periferal cities to be more likely to share unique aspects.
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:04 PM
 
10,630 posts, read 23,426,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjacobeclark View Post
Please stop. You've repeated this misstatement countless times in this thread. MN is not the center of the universe. The Upper Midwest does not revolve around MN.

The Dakotas are Great Plains states and have no similarities whatsoever with WI and MI, who comprise 2/3 of the Upper Midwest's core states. As I've said before, and it's not because I live here, WI is the center of the Upper Midwest. We don't border a foreign country and our culture is more representative of neighboring states than that of MN. For instance, WI has large populations of Catholics, ethnic whites, Blacks, and Latinos like MI and IL, as well as lots of Lutherans and Scandinavians like MN and IA

Places like Gary, IN or Waukegan, IL could just as easily be Racine, WI or Pontiac, MI, just as Chicago and Rockford share more similarities with Milwaukee and Janesville than they do with Indianapolis or Evansville. The northern portions of IL and IN are very similar to the southern portions of WI and MI.
I'll say it: I think Minnesota is the center of the Upper Midwest. I think Minneapolis (and St. Paul) are the central city of the Upper Midwest. (just as Chicago is the central city of the Midwest as a whole) And while I consider most of WI to also be an Upper Midwest state, I think of Milwaukee as being more in the Chicago orbit rather (and don't consider that classic Upper Midwestern).

Not sure what you're saying about demographics; obviously MN, too, has a diverse range of people. It's not all just Lutherans and Scandinavians.

Then again, I don't consider the lower part of MI to be Upper Midwest, either. I think of Upper Midwest as MN, WI, the UP, and the eastern parts of North and South Dakota.
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Lower East Side, Milwaukee, WI
2,945 posts, read 4,152,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
I'll say it: I think Minnesota is the center of the Upper Midwest. I think Minneapolis (and St. Paul) are the central city of the Upper Midwest. (just as Chicago is the central city of the Midwest as a whole) And while I consider most of WI to also be an Upper Midwest state, I think of Milwaukee as being more in the Chicago orbit rather (and don't consider that classic Upper Midwestern).

Not sure what you're saying about demographics; obviously MN, too, has a diverse range of people. It's not all just Lutherans and Scandinavians.

Then again, I don't consider the lower part of MI to be Upper Midwest, either. I think of Upper Midwest as MN, WI, the UP, and the eastern parts of North and South Dakota.
Why? Can somebody from MN please explain why Lower Michigan and Milwaukee aren't considered Upper Midwest? MI and WI are still farther north than all but 7 states (ME, MN, ND, MT, ID, WA, AK).

MI shares borders with Canada and OH. MN shares borders with Canada and the Dakotas. Meanwhile, WI shares borders with MI, MN, IA, and IL, all Upper Midwest states. Hence, making us the center of the Upper Midwest.

The culture of the Dakotas is nothing like the culture found in Upper Midwest cities like Des Moines, Madison, and Grand Rapids. Just because the Dakotas don't seem so alien to people in MN doesn't make them Upper Midwest, if anything, it just further demonstrates that you guys aren't at the center of the region.
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,573,442 times
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Upper Midwest is based on culture. The southern half of Wisconsin, Lower Michigan and Chicago are culturally different than MSP and Minnesota. Different accents, ethnic makeup, city structure, social attitudes. Those areas are "Central Midwest" and are more in line with eastern Iowa, northern Indiana and Ohio, and even Western New York. They aren't Upper Midwest in the cultural sense, while the Dakotas (even the western halves of the Dakotas) ARE culturally Upper Midwestern. Also, lower Michigan, southern Wisconsin and northern Illinois aren't really "Upper" as in northern. They are in the south-central part of the Midwest. For example, Niles, Michigan is closer to Nashville, Tennessee than it is to Marquette, MI (in the same state!) or Minneapolis. Niles, on the southern border of Michigan, is also at the same latitude as Crescent City, California.

Illinois is NOT an Upper Midwest state. There are parts of IL that are in the Deep South. Not just the South, but the DEEP SOUTH. The Mississippi Delta Deep South. Hardly Upper Midwest.
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Old 07-20-2010, 05:58 AM
 
3,234 posts, read 7,633,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
. Different accents, ethnic makeup, city structure, social attitudes. Those areas are "Central Midwest" and are more in line with eastern Iowa, northern Indiana and Ohio, and even Western New York.
I don't know why you keep throwing in Western NY in there. The ethnic makeup, accents, and social attitudes in NY are not the same in the places you describe. Maybe a place like Cleveland is similar but it shares more northeastern attributes, not the other way around.
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Old 07-20-2010, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
5,530 posts, read 10,144,915 times
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Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit and Cleveland are "Upper Midwestern" to me. "Lower Midwestern" would be St. Louis and Cincy. "Midwestern" would be Indy and KC. But really it's just "Midwest" and "Upper Midewest" in my mind, and Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas for example I do not consider Midwestern at all.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Lower East Side, Milwaukee, WI
2,945 posts, read 4,152,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
Upper Midwest is based on culture. The southern half of Wisconsin, Lower Michigan and Chicago are culturally different than MSP and Minnesota. Different accents, ethnic makeup, city structure, social attitudes. Those areas are "Central Midwest" and are more in line with eastern Iowa, northern Indiana and Ohio, and even Western New York. They aren't Upper Midwest in the cultural sense, while the Dakotas (even the western halves of the Dakotas) ARE culturally Upper Midwestern.
How many times do I have to keep saying this? Due to the fact that MN borders the Dakotas, that makes you guys the oddballs, not WI and MI. WI and MI are pretty uniform in their culture, along with the E/SE part of MN. However, once you get west of St. Cloud you start moving towards the Great Plains and the Fargo accent gets stronger. People in the western half of the Dakotas don't have the Fargo accent, they talk like cowboys and Indians because, in all likelihood, they are cowboys and Indians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
Also, lower Michigan, southern Wisconsin and northern Illinois aren't really "Upper" as in northern. They are in the south-central part of the Midwest. For example, Niles, Michigan is closer to Nashville, Tennessee than it is to Marquette, MI (in the same state!) or Minneapolis. Niles, on the southern border of Michigan, is also at the same latitude as Crescent City, California.
It doesn't help that there's a huge freshwater sea in the way. If it weren't for Lake Michigan, then it would be roughly the same distance to Nashville as MSP.

I can do the same thing to MN. La Crescent, MN is closer to Milwaukee than it is to Duluth (in the same state!). La Crescent is at the same tatitude as Eugene, OR and is further south than Portland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
Illinois is NOT an Upper Midwest state. There are parts of IL that are in the Deep South. Not just the South, but the DEEP SOUTH. The Mississippi Delta Deep South. Hardly Upper Midwest.
IL is not the Deep South, it's not even the Upper South, it's still a Midwest state. The Deep South is AR, LA, MS, AL, GA, and SC with some definitions including FL as well. Parts of MO, IL, and IN may have southern tinges to them, but they're still very much Midwest, and they sure as hell aren't the Deep South.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:54 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,123,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
Illinois is NOT an Upper Midwest state. There are parts of IL that are in the Deep South. Not just the South, but the DEEP SOUTH. The Mississippi Delta Deep South. Hardly Upper Midwest.
If you really believe this, then that is fine. At the same time, very few -- even in southern Illinois -- are going to agree with ANY part of the state being in the "Deep South". There are various definition of this sub-region, but I have never heard even one (other than yours) embracing Illinois.

Deep South - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am fairly confident in saying if one suggested to a native of the Mississippi Delta area that you brought up (which has been labeled "the most Southern place on earth") that southern Illinois was part of their region, they would drop dead with hysterical laughter! As likely would any resident of the generally considered Deep South states.

BTW -- I do not mean this post to be flippant nor disrespectful. I have said before, I think the culture maps you have drawn up do a very good job, overall. It is just I have a very difficult time understanding why you place such a large segment of obviously Midwestern states (Illinois, Indiana, Ohio) in the South...much less the Deep South!
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,573,442 times
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You can't tell me Cairo, Illinois is not the Deep South.

Cairo, Illinois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I never said all of Illinois is the Deep South, only EXTREME southern Illinois. Chicago isn't southern.
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Colorado
434 posts, read 1,013,165 times
Reputation: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
You can't tell me Cairo, Illinois is not the Deep South.

Cairo, Illinois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I never said all of Illinois is the Deep South, only EXTREME southern Illinois. Chicago isn't southern.
Extreme southern Illinois is similar to Kentucky and southern Missouri; neither of which are Deep South. Deep South is MS, AL, GA, SC, LA, etc.
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