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Old 07-14-2010, 04:53 PM
 
Location: IN
20,868 posts, read 36,017,910 times
Reputation: 13319

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjacobeclark View Post
Yea, that makes total sense.

Apparently you're the one who needs a geography refresher.

IMHO, this (SD)

GreatPlains_Day5 201 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/johmily/214655564/ - broken link)

looks a lot more like this (NE)

Dawes NE on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kenlund/69183325/ - broken link)

than it does like this (MI).

Lake of the Clouds on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/39142968@N00/260204016/ - broken link)
Michigan is a Midwest state. The pic of SD looks to be taken in "West River," an area that is far more like the West than the Midwest. I would also state that at least 1/2 of Nebraska is more like the West overall than the Midwest. Citizens in Scottsbluff mostly look toward Denver and Rapid City. The same goes for North Platte. Valentine, NE is similar economically and culturally to rural areas of WY and MT. Ranching is the dominant rural economic activity as opposed to farming. Crops are irrigated using center pivot irrigation in a vast majority of NE as well. This is a western attribute that hardly exists in the Midwest agricultural core.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Only if you consider the Great Plains the West. I think the Plains are much more like the Midwest. Nebraska, even Western Nebraska, has more in common with Iowa than it does with California or Nevada.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:40 PM
 
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The Midwest is twelve states:



All twelve of those states in red are in the Midwest. There are arguments about regions WITHIN the Midwest, but there should be no arguments about which twelve states comprise the Midwest.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:52 PM
 
Location: IN
20,868 posts, read 36,017,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeStater View Post
The Midwest is twelve states:



All twelve of those states in red are in the Midwest. There are arguments about regions WITHIN the Midwest, but there should be no arguments about which twelve states comprise the Midwest.
I would say with extensive experience that the western halves of the Great Plains states are FAR MORE Western than Midwestern without a doubt. Places like Rapid City, Scottsbluff, Dodge City, Dickinson, North Platte are far more Western overall. Also, Great Plains agriculture in its current state would not be Midwestern style at all without massive quantities of water drawn from the Ogallala aquifer via center pivot irrigation. From an economic geography perspective Nebraska and Iowa might share similarities with regard to agriculture, but in reality the two states have a lot of differences- particularly with regard to climate.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:57 PM
 
Location: IN
20,868 posts, read 36,017,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
Only if you consider the Great Plains the West. I think the Plains are much more like the Midwest. Nebraska, even Western Nebraska, has more in common with Iowa than it does with California or Nevada.
If you have ever been to the rural areas of the High Plains and its cities (usually regional nodal center places) you would know that you have left the Midwest- particularly west of 98-100 degrees longitude. This is the general consensus dividing line among many with regard to transitioning from the Midwest to the West. In the Dakotas the Missouri River often acts as a huge divide between the agricultural Midwestern eastern halves, and the ranching oil producing western halves. Also, the Black Hills and Badlands exist in the Dakotas- clearly western attributes. Lead, Deadwood, Belle Fourche, Wall, Williston- all towns that I identify as being part of the West.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Two questions GraniteStater:

Would you say Nebraska and the Dakotas have more in common with Iowa and Minnesota, or with California?

Would you consider Western New York and Western Pennsylvania to be the Midwest? Those areas have clear Great Lakes/Midwestern attributes.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
If you have ever been to the rural areas of the High Plains and its cities (usually regional nodal center places) you would know that you have left the Midwest- particularly west of 98-100 degrees longitude. This is the general consensus dividing line among many with regard to transitioning from the Midwest to the West. In the Dakotas the Missouri River often acts as a huge divide between the agricultural Midwestern eastern halves, and the ranching oil producing western halves. Also, the Black Hills and Badlands exist in the Dakotas- clearly western attributes. Lead, Deadwood, Belle Fourche, Wall, Williston- all towns that I identify as being part of the West.
I would say those areas have little in common with the true West, and far more in common with the Midwest. Coming into Nebraska from the West (Washington, Montana, Wyoming) you see a much bigger difference than coming from the east (Minnesota, Iowa). Ask anyone from the true West and they will tell you that the High Plains are Midwestern.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
I would say those areas have little in common with the true West, and far more in common with the Midwest. Coming into Nebraska from the West (Washington, Montana, Wyoming) you see a much bigger difference than coming from the east (Minnesota, Iowa). Ask anyone from the true West and they will tell you that the High Plains are Midwestern.
It depends on what version of the West that is being referenced. I have as much a hard time picturing the area around the Black Hills as Midwest as I do the Missouri Bootheel area since they both so diverge from the prototypical Midwest and match more closely to the prototypical examples of other regions.

I am thinking the Great Plains would be considered a broad regional group like Midwest, South, Northeas if it had more people. It is a larger region than the Northeast for example. The issue is weather it has more in common with places East of it in the Midwest or West of it in the Rocky Mountains? Or is it so distinct it can't really be grouped in with either and is a broad cultural region of its own?
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Lower East Side, Milwaukee, WI
2,945 posts, read 4,157,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingwriter View Post
There are places in MN that look just like your South Dakota and Nebraska pictures. Minnesota is the quintessential Upper Midwest state.
NO IT ISN'T!

If the core of the Upper Midwest is MI, WI, and MN, then WI would be the quintessential Upper Midwest state because it's in the middle. Just because WI and Lower MI are south of MN, doesn't make them Lower Midwest. WI and MI are still considered Northern relative to 90% of the country. MN is a transition zone between Great Lakes and Great Plains. The eastern two-thirds of MN looks just like WI and MI. Far western MN is where the Great Plains begin.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:34 PM
 
400 posts, read 870,160 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
I would say with extensive experience that the western halves of the Great Plains states are FAR MORE Western than Midwestern without a doubt. Places like Rapid City, Scottsbluff, Dodge City, Dickinson, North Platte are far more Western overall. Also, Great Plains agriculture in its current state would not be Midwestern style at all without massive quantities of water drawn from the Ogallala aquifer via center pivot irrigation. From an economic geography perspective Nebraska and Iowa might share similarities with regard to agriculture, but in reality the two states have a lot of differences- particularly with regard to climate.
Twelve states comprise the Midwest. The definition of "the West" is very, very nebulous. You could extend the "west" all the way to Saint Louis if you wanted to. As far as I can tell, your argument is that Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, and North Dakota should not be in the Midwest because the western halves of those states are too "western", which you base on climate and rainfall.

Kansas gets about 28 inches of rainfall annually at 98 degrees west. In good years, it can get more than 30 inches annually 98 degrees west. That is the same amount of rainfall that southern Minnesota/northern Iowa gets (and northern Michigan). Western Kansas gets about the same amount of rainfall as western Minnesota.

This is a rainfall map of the U.S. You will see how the annual rainfall drops off very strongly at the Montana/Wyoming/Colorado/New Mexico border. West of there is a true DESERT. East of there is drier, but still wet enough to grow crops without irrigation. Irrigation is just used in some areas because it improves yields. ND, SD, NE, and KS are MIDWEST, not west. They are the western edge of the Midwest.

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