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Old 07-14-2010, 10:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Catholics don't actually teach socialism and there are several documents by the Church that are strongly against socialism.

The problem is we use "socialism" in such a catch-all/catch-can way that I suppose you could say they teach socialism in so much as Catholicism is traditionally skeptical of Capitalism. Still it isn't really the same thing though. Teddy Roosevelt and Benjamin Disraeli were critical of many aspects of Capitalist society, but you have to be in the Glenn-Beck fringe of life to deem them socialist.

Socialism is a belief that the state should own/nationalize the major industries and works toward equal distribution of wealth. The Catholic Church has always been wary of a centralized secular-state having too much power and tended to believe certain disparities of wealth are natural. They/we just also traditionally believe in protection of workers, ameliorating poverty, avoiding greed, promoting charity, and favoring solidarity among classes.

Granted in American-speak this might sound like "blah-blah-blah, basically socialism" but it's not in any normal meaning of the world. Catholicism's views on economics and social justice are mostly unrelated to US political norms as most Catholics, particularly most church-attending Catholics, do not live in the US.
Generally in Catholic social teaching on economics it seems to perfer something in the middle and is against going too far one way or the other. Also consider that the religion is global in nature unlike most Protestant denominations and especially Evangelicals which is why Catholicism isn't comfortable combining patriotism and nationalism to their faith.

I was thinking as well on this poll as well that an interesting issue pops up. In terms of social policy what might be liberal/conservative now might not be in the future if the center of gravity on a particular issue changes, also that some areas might be different depending on a particular issue as well.

Also is an area more likely to change its social views faster than economic ones or is it reversed?
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Old 07-14-2010, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Pasadena
7,412 posts, read 8,241,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I am Catholic too and I do not agree. More importantly I can source that disagreement.

Yes Latin American Liberation Theology is socialist, but Liberation Theology is only one thread and largely outside the mainstream. There are Catholic nations in Europe, like Ireland, that are clearly not socialist. Furthermore

"In letters addressed to the people of Italy We have more than once warned those on whom falls the serious responsibility of power of this natural and necessary connection between religious decadence and the development of the spirit of revolution and disorder. We have also drawn attention to the inevitable progress of socialism and anarchy and to the endless evil to which they expose the nation." Spesse Volte, Pope Leo XIII

"The Church has condemned the various forms of Marxist Socialism; and she condemns them again today, because it is her permanent right and duty to safeguard men from fallacious arguments and subversive influence that jeopardize their eternal salvation." Evangelii Praecones, Pope Pius II

"Some Christians are today attracted by socialist currents and their various developments. They try to recognize therein a certain number of aspirations which they carry within themselves in the name of their faith. They feel that they are part of that historical current and wish to play a part within it. Now this historical current takes on, under the same name, different forms according to different continents and cultures, even if it drew its inspiration, and still does in many cases, from ideologies incompatible with faith. Careful judgment is called for. Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. They refuse to recognize the limitations of the historical socialist movements, which remain conditioned by the ideologies from which they originated. Distinctions must be made to guide concrete choices between the various levels of expression of socialism: a generous aspiration and a seeking for a more just society, historical movements with a political organization and aim, and an ideology which claims to give a complete and self-sufficient picture of man. Nevertheless, these distinctions must not lead one to consider such levels as completely separate and independent. The concrete link which, according to circumstances, exists between them must be clearly marked out. This insight will enable Christians to see the degree of commitment possible along these lines, while safeguarding the values, especially those of liberty, responsibility and openness to the spiritual, which guarantee the integral development of man." Octagesima Adveniens, Pope Paul VI iin 1971: This one is more cautious than negative, but I wouldn't call it a total embrace of socialism.
All of this is outdated and applies to a form of 19th & 20th century socialism that suppressed Christianity [including eastern European Orthodox & Lutherans]. That's old history and does not refer to the practice of socialism dictated in the Catholic faith.

Republicans generally try to fit the Catholic faith into a narrow capitalistic compartment dissimilar and at odds to the worldwide Catholic church.
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Old 07-14-2010, 11:23 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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The one from Paul VI I think is still relevant as Pope Benedict XVI cited it in a 2009 encyclical that was largely Left-leaning in economic views.

"Caritas in veritate" - Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI

I guess if I must be pressed into choosing I would say Catholic social doctrine is closer to socialism than capitalism, but in the truest sense of the words it's not either one. I think a Catholic could oppose nationalizing the banks or the mines and be well within Catholic thought. Or oppose exorbitant rates of inheritance tax. Catholic Republicans who support full-out libertarian economic views, like eliminating Food Stamps and the minimum wage, I'd agree are rather perplexing. The Church seems to be fairly clear that food, water, and at least emergency medicine are basic rights. That the state does have to be concerned with the poor.

Anyway this is getting a bit off-topic, sorry.

Last edited by Thomas R.; 07-15-2010 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:00 AM
 
1,645 posts, read 3,192,366 times
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New Hampshire is the first state that comes to mind.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:13 AM
 
56,637 posts, read 80,930,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialmog View Post
Generally in Catholic social teaching on economics it seems to perfer something in the middle and is against going too far one way or the other. Also consider that the religion is global in nature unlike most Protestant denominations and especially Evangelicals which is why Catholicism isn't comfortable combining patriotism and nationalism to their faith.

I was thinking as well on this poll as well that an interesting issue pops up. In terms of social policy what might be liberal/conservative now might not be in the future if the center of gravity on a particular issue changes, also that some areas might be different depending on a particular issue as well.

Also is an area more likely to change its social views faster than economic ones or is it reversed?
Exactly and American history tells us this. For instance, the Republican party when it first started was more "liberal" and was anti-slavery. Southern Democrats(more like Dixiecrats) were against Civil Rights legislation due to essentially maintaining the Southern way of life. So, things aren't necessarily as static in terms of political affiliation and being "liberal" or "conservative".

NY is an interesting state, as many religiously based movements started there, eventhough the state has a history of being known as a "liberal" state. Mormonism, the Second Great Awakening and many Abolitionists came from NY(Upstate NY in particular). They have a base in faith/religion, but are viewed as being "liberal"in context of the times as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grandison_Finney

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_....E2.80.9330.29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Yor...ission_Society

Also, keep in mind that NY had slavery until 1827 and is something people don't know about or talk about in regards to NY.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:57 AM
 
10,630 posts, read 23,419,189 times
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Much of MN could be described as socially liberal but fiscally conservative, although in recent years seem to have been shifting and people -- or at least politicians -- increasingly being divided into more distinct "us" versus "them" camps with less overlap. Still, MN might offer the right mix, especially if you avoid the city (ultra-liberal on both counts) and some of the exurbs (some are just fiscally conservative, but some areas are also socially conservative).
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:07 AM
 
Location: NE PA
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PA is kind of the other way around....socially conservative, fiscally a little more moderate.
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:10 AM
 
Location: NE PA
7,936 posts, read 13,864,869 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Exactly and American history tells us this. For instance, the Republican party when it first started was more "liberal" and was anti-slavery. Southern Democrats(more like Dixiecrats) were against Civil Rights legislation due to essentially maintaining the Southern way of life. So, things aren't necessarily as static in terms of political affiliation and being "liberal" or "conservative".

NY is an interesting state, as many religiously based movements started there, eventhough the state has a history of being known as a "liberal" state. Mormonism, the Second Great Awakening and many Abolitionists came from NY(Upstate NY in particular). They have a base in faith/religion, but are viewed as being "liberal"in context of the times as well. Charles Grandison Finney - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Joseph Smith, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New York Manumission Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, keep in mind that NY had slavery until 1827 and is something people don't know about or talk about in regards to NY.
New York would probably be a socially conservative state if you cut out NYC...pretty much the same thing with PA and Philadelphia. Makes you wonder who decided on the state boundaries....NYC and Philadelphia seem more like New Jersey than their home states, and the rest of PA and NY state are very similar culturally.
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:28 AM
 
56,637 posts, read 80,930,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go phillies View Post
New York would probably be a socially conservative state if you cut out NYC...pretty much the same thing with PA and Philadelphia. Makes you wonder who decided on the state boundaries....NYC and Philadelphia seem more like New Jersey than their home states, and the rest of PA and NY state are very similar culturally.
Give or take, you're right. I'd say that Upstate NY would be a bit more socially liberal than the rest of PA though. We have some pretty socially liberal communities in Upstate NY like Ithaca and specific areas of the major cities too. To paraphrase what one NY politician said, it's an area of the state where the Democrats are a bit more conservative and the Republicans are a bit more liberal.
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,403 posts, read 21,201,573 times
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Orange County, California is a big one.
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