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Old 07-25-2010, 08:35 PM
 
1,290 posts, read 1,199,293 times
Reputation: 3030

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever View Post
The U.S. Constitution, not the Confederate Constitution, left it to the states.
So the denial of "state's rights" under the Confederacy is acceptable in opposition to the "State's Rights" argument against the Union?

Quote:
That said, people were tired of the federal government telling people what they could do with their property, and slaves were property. They bought them with money, hence property. That is why they decided to place that clause into the Confederate Constitution. I never once said that slavery wasn't an issue the South redressed and rebuked the federal government for, of which led to a disfavor with the federal government. My point is that it was one of many.
Per the Dred Scott decision, the Federal Government was EXACTLY telling the States that, irregardless of State laws against slavery, a slave in any other state was still a slave in a free state. This was specifically codified in the Confederate Constitution, again, federal power usurping State power. And, finally, the federal government once again denied the humanity and the citizenship of Dred Scott or anyone of African ancestry. Yet, this federal intrusion into the lives of people was codified by the Confederacy.


Quote:
If you'll actually read letters and documents of the time, most people didn't consider it evil. The north abolished slavery because it threatened small farmers ability to make a living for themselves. Abraham Lincoln cared little for the slaves. Slavery was occurring at the time in places far and awide. It was accepted by most as a part of commerce.
Did "most people" in Mississippi or South Carolina at the time not consider it an evil, since most people in these states were slaves? Did slaves get to voice their opinion? Were abolition groups founded in order to support small farmers? Did the Mass. constitution of 1780 state that "all men are born equal and free" only in order to protect farmers? And Lincoln:
"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel."
Quote:
It's not like they weren't enslaved in their African motherland. Who do you think sold them? Furthermore, their treatment and livelihood was much better in the Americas than on their home continent under such as position.
And their children? And their children? And you know for a fact that their treatment was better as slaves? Without the market demand for slaves, the ancestors of the slaves in the 1860s would never have been captured or sold. African people were not legally brought to the US as slaves after 1807 - so by 1860 nearly all slaves had America as their home continent, not Africa.

Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't own slaves, nor would I want someone hanging around all the time, but times were different. You're viewing the world through the lens of Hollywood-influenced mainstream, modern times values with regard to the issue of slavery.
Let's look at the world, then, through the Republican platform of 1860:
"8. That the normal condition of all the territory of the United States is that of freedom; that as our republican fathers, when they had abolished slavery in all our national territory, ordained that no "person should be deprived of life, liberty or property, without due process of law," it becomes our duty, by legislation, whenever such legislation is necessary, to maintain this provision of the constitution against all attempts to violate it; and we deny the authority of congress, of a territorial legislature, or of any individuals, to give legal existence to slavery in any territory of the United States. 9. That we brand the recent re-opening of the African Slave Trade, under the cover of our national flag, aided by perversions of judicial power, as a crime against humanity, and a burning shame to our country and age, and we call upon congress to take prompt and efficient measures for the total and final suppression of that execrable traffic."
Quote:
I don't condone slavery, but I don't view it as this all-oppressive evil, in the same regard as murder. Mistreatment of the slaves is another issue, and with that I agree with you that it is evil. However, for most slaves, they weren't receiving horsewhippings and the like that Hollywood portrays. Most simply played the roles of farmers and maids, ones that were provided food, clothing, and shelter. Many had a strong bond with the slave master's family.
So keeping a human and their children perpetually imprisoned is not mistreatment? Regarding a "strong bond" given a choice would most slaves remain so? If it was so great why not expand slavery to persons of European ancestry?

Quote:
Prostitution violates the body and it corrupts the soul. Drug dealing destroys people's lives. These, in my opinion, are much worse than a form of slavery that isn't violent. On the other hand, a violent slavery can be as bad, or worse than Prostitution and drug dealing.
How does slavery not corrupt the soul of a slave owner? How are slave's lives not destroyed when freedom is withheld from them and their children?


Quote:
What evidence do you have to support this?
The Constitution specifically identifies slavery and not just property. That seems pretty specific to me.


Quote:
That's related to an individual, not a state government.
Like all of the individuals who took arms against the Union Army, or the government individuals who gave it orders?
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Old 07-25-2010, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Hernando County, FL
8,488 posts, read 17,932,473 times
Reputation: 5397
Ex-Northerners: Do you like living in the South or do you wish you would be living up north again?
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Old 07-25-2010, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,509 posts, read 7,454,824 times
Reputation: 10903
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
According to our founding fathers:



Your path leads to destruction and death.

That pamphlet you showed called for the different colonies to unite AGAINST the tyranny. The founding fathers knew we needed to stick together against the tyranny of George III. The tyranny we face today is from our own goverment and our founding fathers would recognize that. They would expect many states if not all of them to unite against this tyranny as well. However some states in the northeast and west coast will likely choose to support the all mighty federal goverment, as the population of those states called for the socialism in the first place. That is thier right, as it is the right of other states to protect thier own interest. We are starting to see a strong states rights culture spring up in this country for the first time in 140 years. Look at Arizona standing up to obama to protect her borders, and several states are trying to pass state soverignty acts. States are begining use their constitutionally agreed upon power to govern themselves. Maybe the consequences of Appomatix can be reversed after all.
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Old 07-26-2010, 04:12 PM
 
158 posts, read 312,172 times
Reputation: 193
RocketSci is living in another world.
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Old 07-26-2010, 05:33 PM
 
1,290 posts, read 1,199,293 times
Reputation: 3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohninAustin View Post
RocketSci is living in another world.

I was taught where I grew up to support America, not my home state. I say no oath to my home state, nor will I to any adopted state. I am an American first, foremost, and always. I fly the American flag, and support my elected officials, right up to the point where the SOBs are replaced by the next duly elected officials. I was taught, and I believe, that our government is of and by the People.

That's the world I grew up in, and the country that continues to lead the world.

William Tecumseh Sherman had some good words to say about those who threaten the unity of our country:
"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war.[...] I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success. But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for anything. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter."
--- William Tecumseh Sherman's response to the people of Atlanta who would not evacuate the city prior to its destruction
The origin of "Unite or Die" was unity of the colonies against the French. Only later did it's meaning change.

So does this ex-Northerner wish he could live up North again? If the attitudes which spurred on secession and Civil War continue to be flamed by Southern politicians and their useful idiots then it wouldn't be soon enough. In the meantime, I'm betting that sanity will prevail, since so much of the Southern economy depends on federal dollars, which conveniently flow disproportionally South.
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: where my heart is
5,642 posts, read 7,966,090 times
Reputation: 1661
Default Actually I did

Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
I was taught where I grew up to support America, not my home state. I say no oath to my home state, nor will I to any adopted state. I am an American first, foremost, and always. I fly the American flag, and support my elected officials, right up to the point where the SOBs are replaced by the next duly elected officials. I was taught, and I believe, that our government is of and by the People.

That's the world I grew up in, and the country that continues to lead the world.

William Tecumseh Sherman had some good words to say about those who threaten the unity of our country:
"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war.[...] I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success. But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for anything. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter."
--- William Tecumseh Sherman's response to the people of Atlanta who would not evacuate the city prior to its destruction
The origin of "Unite or Die" was unity of the colonies against the French. Only later did it's meaning change.

So does this ex-Northerner wish he could live up North again? If the attitudes which spurred on secession and Civil War continue to be flamed by Southern politicians and their useful idiots then it wouldn't be soon enough. In the meantime, I'm betting that sanity will prevail, since so much of the Southern economy depends on federal dollars, which conveniently flow disproportionally South.
when I went to work for a public school in the state of Florida, I had to swear allegiance to not only the Constitution of the USA, but the State of Florida. I have no problem with the United States of America, but I thought we had free travel in this country, so why should I have to swear allegiance to any one state.
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Old 07-26-2010, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Middle Tennessee
166 posts, read 537,863 times
Reputation: 182
Another reason why I would like to leave Tennessee: Southerners' love of the Civil War and finding ways to justify slavery.
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,509 posts, read 7,454,824 times
Reputation: 10903
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
I was taught where I grew up to support America, not my home state. I say no oath to my home state, nor will I to any adopted state. I am an American first, foremost, and always. I fly the American flag, and support my elected officials, right up to the point where the SOBs are replaced by the next duly elected officials. I was taught, and I believe, that our government is of and by the People.

That's the world I grew up in, and the country that continues to lead the world.

William Tecumseh Sherman had some good words to say about those who threaten the unity of our country:
"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. But you cannot have peace and a division of our country. If the United States submits to a division now, it will not stop, but will go on until we reap the fate of Mexico, which is eternal war.[...] I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success. But, my dear sirs, when peace does come, you may call on me for anything. Then will I share with you the last cracker, and watch with you to shield your homes and families against danger from every quarter."
--- William Tecumseh Sherman's response to the people of Atlanta who would not evacuate the city prior to its destruction
The origin of "Unite or Die" was unity of the colonies against the French. Only later did it's meaning change.

So does this ex-Northerner wish he could live up North again? If the attitudes which spurred on secession and Civil War continue to be flamed by Southern politicians and their useful idiots then it wouldn't be soon enough. In the meantime, I'm betting that sanity will prevail, since so much of the Southern economy depends on federal dollars, which conveniently flow disproportionally South.

You quoted the greatest war criminal ever to walk on North American soil. Congradulations. Sherman killed civilians, burned homes, burned non military assets, and he did all this in the name of keeping the citizens of Georgia he was persecuting in the Union. If a general did what he did to the taliban or Nazis I would support him, but he did it to Americans. He also had no love for the slaves you credit the north with saving either.
You say you support your elected officials, well did you support President Bush when he was in office?? I kind of doubt it, but Im going to go out on a limb here and say you likely support obama and all the "acorn" elected officials that seized power in the sham, whooops I mean "election" of 08. I do agree with you on one thing, the division in this nation is leading us to a new dark chapter in our history. Something is building, people are moving into two camps, one thats supports traditional American values and capitolism, and the other one that supports social liberalism, socialism and powerful federal control. Even though I agree that division will hurt us in the short term, I will never support conceeding anything to the leftist pinkos that want to alter America beyond recognition. I would rather face the consequences of division, even if it becomes extreme like in 1860 rather than see one compromise with those socialist put into law. Socialism ALWAYS leads to some reduction in the freedom our founding fathers gave thier blood for. Socialism did not free the Russians, the Chinese, the Koreans, cubans or anyone else. I know the God fearing south will stand with the right side, they support real American values. I may live in Michigan but the values the south stands for is a big part of why I respect the south like I do. I can only hope the people of Michigan and the rest of the midwest have learned thier lesson seeing the results of the last few years of socialism. I do think there is hope here, but in some parts of America there is not.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:57 PM
 
10,452 posts, read 10,624,444 times
Reputation: 12537
I grew up in Washington, D.C., which is geographically close to the Mason-Dixon Line, but culturally very Northern. I moved to North Carolina, greater Charlotte area for a year. I can't wait to get out of here. I understand that there are just cultural differences but I am very tired of how things work here.

Where I live it seems like everything is conducted through religion. I understand people have different religious beliefs, but when it becomes the fabric of society, and you're not religious, it's really hard to try to avoid. Not just because most people are religious--or more specifically, Christian, but because most people wear it on their sleeve. Constantly. Like stopping a party to make a prayer in Jesus' name. Or coming up to me and asking if I've accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. (I admit, because I have a visible disability, I get this more often than the average person, but is it really any of their business?) Church is so ingrained in how society works here that the only way I could really get to know people and make friends was by joining a church.

Things move slower here, which I both like and don't like. I don't like that the mail takes much longer to arrive here than it ever did in D.C. I do like the fact that people don't feel so stressed to do things right here and now.

People are much more conversational and polite here, which I can definitely appreciate. I've never been made to feel stupid, which I admit did happen to me at times up North. On the other hand, it makes me a little nervous when people start talking about how lack of manners will lead to the downfall of society.

It seems both the North and South could learn a lot from each other instead of constantly antagonizing each other the way they often do. For example, there is value in intellectualism and there is value in having faith. How about a little bit of everything?
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Old 07-26-2010, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Middle Tennessee
166 posts, read 537,863 times
Reputation: 182
^^^ I second this. Being agnostic, it is really hard to find people who share my lack of religious faith. I don't mind people being religious at all (most of my friends here are), but a lot of people do like to shove it down your throat. My mother (who is devoutly Catholic and raised in Jersey) gets perturbed by it as she has always believed religion is a very private matter.
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