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My family moved from Massachusetts to Arkansas when I was younger. We also took annual vacations to visit family, and I loved visiting. When we visited, everyone was excited to see us, and it was wonderful, big family picnics, something to do every minute, someone different to go see every day. Living there would not be like a vacation. And things have changed considerably since we lived there, aunts and uncles and grandparents have passed away, cousins are all grown up and have families and careers. And the old neighborhoods I remember have changed drastically. My elementary school is gone. The woods I played in as a child, gone. The stores I remember, gone.
When we moved to Arkansas the town we moved to was tiny. It was a huge change. But children adapt quickly. I remember missing the stores, the restaurants, the parks. There wasn't even a McDonalds in this town. That's all changed now, too. But it doesn't seem so changed because I was here, while the changes were happening.
I think that you are at a point in your life, where it's important to think about yourself, what you like, what you don't like, what you want, what you don't care about. Be realistic. You might want the 4 million condo in downtown New York, but that's probably beyond your reach. But when you actually firm up in your mind what kind of life you want to have, then you can start to research where you're most likely to realize your ambitions. It might not be in Tennessee or in New Jersey or close by. It might be across the country, or across the world. But you are at a point in your life where you are free to take the most risks in order to create the life you want. And if it doesn't work out, you can still say that you took a chance, right?
There's an anecdote a friend of mine likes to share.
(And it was told to me as a true story)
Some Brits were having dinner with some South Carolinians on a trip to the states.
One of the Brits was talking about Scotland and the group was discussing some similarities that exist between the Scots and Southerners. In addition to some direct shared lineage, heritage, culture, one of the Brits offered that both shared an adversarial culture and history.
An older lady at the table, hard of hearing, responded "I'm sorry. What sort of history did you say?"
"An adversarial history."
"Pardon?"
At which point the lady's husband says to her, in that voice you reserve for when you're frustrated with people who can't hear well,
"THEY BOTH LOST THE WAR."
I think that, culturally, the Civil War helped to define the South as a region to a greater extent than before. Perhaps Reconstruction was even more vital in this regard.
And no, I don't want to get into "the South needs to GET OVER that war!" because I fully agree and that isn't what I'm talking about. Losing that war and dealing with the policies that followed gave those states something in common in a way that the rest of the Union didn't have. It was unity in defeat.
So that's where the identity comes from, at least in part.
Now, culture and identity are two different things. Yes, Southerners share a cultural identity that folks from the Northeast and Midwest don't, but I'd argue that the cultures vary just as much throughout the South as they do in the North.
You are right in that maybe the Civil War did have the effect of giving the South a cultural identity that can unite the differences in a region. I am thinking that a similar thing might be occuring to an extent in the Midwest with regards to manufacturing decline uniting an area in defeat. It could be a similar region defining event though it is something that is concentrated in one part of the Midwest so maybe not or it causes a greater difference within the region.
People are trying to be too specific (like always) with what I originally posted. Simply put, MOST people who live in the northern states (NY, NJ, PA, Mass, IL, Michigan) USUALLY end up moving to the suburbs of a lot of the bigger cities in the South (Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Orlando, Nashville, etc.)
People are trying to be too specific (like always) with what I originally posted. Simply put, MOST people who live in the northern states (NY, NJ, PA, Mass, IL, Michigan) USUALLY end up moving to the suburbs of a lot of the bigger cities in the South (Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Orlando, Nashville, etc.)
I know you feel like you're getting nitpicked to death, but an AWFUL lot of the folks I've met who've moved from North to South were retirees, and they don't settle in burbs. They end up in Hilton Head or Wilmington or some other spot near a golf course and some sunshine.
Furthermore, growing up I knew lots of folks whose families moved from up north because of military placements. My hometown was under 40k, but we were crawling with folks from NY, NJ, MI, etc. because of a big honkin AFB just outside of town.
There's an anecdote a friend of mine likes to share.
(And it was told to me as a true story)
Some Brits were having dinner with some South Carolinians on a trip to the states.
One of the Brits was talking about Scotland and the group was discussing some similarities that exist between the Scots and Southerners. In addition to some direct shared lineage, heritage, culture, one of the Brits offered that both shared an adversarial culture and history.
An older lady at the table, hard of hearing, responded "I'm sorry. What sort of history did you say?"
"An adversarial history."
"Pardon?"
At which point the lady's husband says to her, in that voice you reserve for when you're frustrated with people who can't hear well,
"THEY BOTH LOST THE WAR."
I think that, culturally, the Civil War helped to define the South as a region to a greater extent than before. Perhaps Reconstruction was even more vital in this regard.
And no, I don't want to get into "the South needs to GET OVER that war!" because I fully agree and that isn't what I'm talking about. Losing that war and dealing with the policies that followed gave those states something in common in a way that the rest of the Union didn't have. It was unity in defeat.
So that's where the identity comes from, at least in part.
Now, culture and identity are two different things. Yes, Southerners share a cultural identity that folks from the Northeast and Midwest don't, but I'd argue that the cultures vary just as much throughout the South as they do in the North.
I agree completly with what you say about the war of northern aggression, and how it impacted the southern sense of regional identity. The battles were largely fought on southern soil, southern towns and plantations were destroyed, and the consequences of defeat were rammed down thier throats thru reconstruction and carpetbagging. To add insult to injury the media and hollywood have portrayed the south as backward and inferior for the past 100 years, and history books have taught Americas youth about the moral superiority of the north, and how they defeated and reformed the backward slavemasters of Dixie. The southern resentment that exists is a natural reaction to 140 years of being badmouthed and disrespected. Here in Michigan people sometimes get angry about how our state is being portrayed as an economic failure, backward and impoverished by the media. We have been hearing our state badmouthed for 10-15 years as our economy has disintigrated. IN the south they have been hearing this crap for 140 years. I understand why they get irritated.
I agree completly with what you say about the war of northern aggression, and how it impacted the southern sense of regional identity. The battles were largely fought on southern soil, southern towns and plantations were destroyed, and the consequences of defeat were rammed down thier throats thru reconstruction and carpetbagging. To add insult to injury the media and hollywood have portrayed the south as backward and inferior for the past 100 years, and history books have taught Americas youth about the moral superiority of the north, and how they defeated and reformed the backward slavemasters of Dixie. The southern resentment that exists is a natural reaction to 140 years of being badmouthed and disrespected. Here in Michigan people sometimes get angry about how our state is being portrayed as an economic failure, backward and impoverished by the media. We have been hearing our state badmouthed for 10-15 years as our economy has disintigrated. IN the south they have been hearing this crap for 140 years. I understand why they get irritated.
Right, but it's not the irritation that I'm referring to. Following the Civil War and all of the subsequent activity, the South was cordoned off as a singular entity. Even state identity was secondary to regional identity, because it was the region that was being punished for secession and war.
It was through that adversity that the region solidified its common identity. Prior to the Civil War, the idea of secession was more individualized on a state-by-state basis. It wasn't "the South" that fired on the Union garrison at Fort Sumter. It was South Carolina.
However, after the war, it wasn't South Carolina or Georgia or Mississippi being punished. It was "the Confederates." "The Secessionists."
It was "the South".
Again, this isn't a qualitative attempt to fight battles from 150 years ago. This is just an explanation of why the South may identify itself as a region more readily than some others might, even if it is a hodge-podge of different local cultures.
I agree completly with what you say about the war of northern aggression, and how it impacted the southern sense of regional identity. The battles were largely fought on southern soil, southern towns and plantations were destroyed, and the consequences of defeat were rammed down thier throats thru reconstruction and carpetbagging. To add insult to injury the media and hollywood have portrayed the south as backward and inferior for the past 100 years, and history books have taught Americas youth about the moral superiority of the north, and how they defeated and reformed the backward slavemasters of Dixie. The southern resentment that exists is a natural reaction to 140 years of being badmouthed and disrespected. Here in Michigan people sometimes get angry about how our state is being portrayed as an economic failure, backward and impoverished by the media. We have been hearing our state badmouthed for 10-15 years as our economy has disintigrated. IN the south they have been hearing this crap for 140 years. I understand why they get irritated.
I agree completly with what you say about the war of northern aggression, and how it impacted the southern sense of regional identity. The battles were largely fought on southern soil, southern towns and plantations were destroyed, and the consequences of defeat were rammed down thier throats thru reconstruction and carpetbagging. To add insult to injury the media and hollywood have portrayed the south as backward and inferior for the past 100 years, and history books have taught Americas youth about the moral superiority of the north, and how they defeated and reformed the backward slavemasters of Dixie. The southern resentment that exists is a natural reaction to 140 years of being badmouthed and disrespected. Here in Michigan people sometimes get angry about how our state is being portrayed as an economic failure, backward and impoverished by the media. We have been hearing our state badmouthed for 10-15 years as our economy has disintigrated. IN the south they have been hearing this crap for 140 years. I understand why they get irritated.
I also have to think the fact that the majority of the South lagged behind economically up until the last few decades played a role in it. Is there any correlation between what is considered more backwards ares and economy? It does seem to be that there is a connection between it and if the area is more prosperous and growing.
I know you feel like you're getting nitpicked to death, but an AWFUL lot of the folks I've met who've moved from North to South were retirees, and they don't settle in burbs. They end up in Hilton Head or Wilmington or some other spot near a golf course and some sunshine.
Furthermore, growing up I knew lots of folks whose families moved from up north because of military placements. My hometown was under 40k, but we were crawling with folks from NY, NJ, MI, etc. because of a big honkin AFB just outside of town.
So your results may vary.
Exactly... My grandfather mom's side went from Chicago > Northwestern > Navy > North FL due to its proximity to Eglin/Pensacola/Tyndall, they moved in the early 60s.
He was an engineer
My dad's side of the family was from Boston and did something similar.
So you can def have northern family roots in the south...
Several people in my family in my dad's mom's generation and mine have gone back north. A few assimilated into southern culture and married into southern families and now talk with an accent, some don't seem southern at all and still live there, others went back north.
I agree completly with what you say about the war of northern aggression, and how it impacted the southern sense of regional identity. The battles were largely fought on southern soil, southern towns and plantations were destroyed, and the consequences of defeat were rammed down thier throats thru reconstruction and carpetbagging. To add insult to injury the media and hollywood have portrayed the south as backward and inferior for the past 100 years, and history books have taught Americas youth about the moral superiority of the north, and how they defeated and reformed the backward slavemasters of Dixie. The southern resentment that exists is a natural reaction to 140 years of being badmouthed and disrespected. Here in Michigan people sometimes get angry about how our state is being portrayed as an economic failure, backward and impoverished by the media. We have been hearing our state badmouthed for 10-15 years as our economy has disintigrated. IN the south they have been hearing this crap for 140 years. I understand why they get irritated.
This perfectly summarizes why many Northerners do not like the South - the obsession with the Civil War, and the glorification of "state's rights" which is nothing more than a justification of treason and slavery. The institutions supported by the Confederacy were evil. I do not fault the Southerners who fought in the war, excepting those commissioned as US Officers, whom I consider treasonous in supporting an in armed insurrection against the United States. I see the Southerners as comparable to the average Germans who fought in Hitler's armies. For anyone, today, to continue to support the institutions and symbols of the Confederacy in anything more than an historical context - I consider that borderline treasonous and evil, as much as a Nazi supporter today would be.
I agree with you about the history book problem, though. The backward slave masters were not reformed, unfortunately, and THAT was the primary cause of 140 years of being (rightfully) badmouthed and disrespected. Southern resentment is that they could never accept that they were wrong.
It was AFTER civil rights legislation, desegregation, and a greater acceptance of ALL people that progressive Southern cities (Atlanta, Houston, etc) symbolizing the "new" South began an economic and social renaissance. Less progressive Southern cities have lagged behind.
Last edited by RocketSci; 07-25-2010 at 04:49 PM..
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