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Old 07-30-2010, 12:03 PM
 
908 posts, read 1,815,565 times
Reputation: 1317

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It used to be that you could live in a poor neighborhood and it didn't mean you had to deal with trashy people and crime. People went to work, valued education, had intact families, and were neighborly. People were poor materially, but their community still had strong values and firm grounding. Trashy people and criminals were ostracized.

Now poor neighborhoods are becoming more and more synonymous with high dropout rate, gangs, crime and little civic responsibility.

In this sense the lower middle class has fallen off the deep end and merged with the welfare class without getting the welfare.

I blame the collapse of the nuclear family and media (like reality TV and Jerry Springer) for making dysfunctional behavior socially acceptable among the lower middle class.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Soon to be Southlake, TX
648 posts, read 1,417,424 times
Reputation: 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guineas View Post
It used to be that you could live in a poor neighborhood and it didn't mean you had to deal with trashy people and crime. People went to work, valued education, had intact families, and were neighborly. People were poor materially, but their community still had strong values and firm grounding. Trashy people and criminals were ostracized.

Now poor neighborhoods are becoming more and more synonymous with high dropout rate, gangs, crime and little civic responsibility.

In this sense the lower middle class has fallen off the deep end and merged with the welfare class without getting the welfare.

I blame the collapse of the nuclear family and media (like reality TV and Jerry Springer) for making dysfunctional behavior socially acceptable among the lower middle class.
So do you want the government to step in and take control of what people can and can not watch now? If someone is that immature and irresponsible that they let a freaking television show dictate their life then they have problems not the television set. Nobody is forcing them to watch it, they chose to watch it and now you want to blame their problems on the television? Their problems stem from how they live their lives. People need to start taking responsibility for themselves and stop trying to find scapegoats. There is the real problem, a lack of responsibilty because liberals want to hand too much to the irresponsible on a silver platter and then it becomes a matter of entitlement. Also parents need to take responsibility too. My children will not be watching bad shows until they are old enough and I feel they are reasonable enough to separate right from wrong. Then they can watch whatever they want.

The middle class disappearing is not the upper class fault for getting richer, it is the lower and middle classes fault for being irresponsible and buying so many of their services and products to make the upper class richer and the lower and middle classes poorer.

Last edited by RussianIvanov; 07-30-2010 at 12:56 PM..
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Old 07-30-2010, 01:22 PM
 
908 posts, read 1,815,565 times
Reputation: 1317
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianIvanov View Post
So do you want the government to step in and take control of what people can and can not watch now? If someone is that immature and irresponsible that they let a freaking television show dictate their life then they have problems not the television set. Nobody is forcing them to watch it, they chose to watch it and now you want to blame their problems on the television? Their problems stem from how they live their lives. People need to start taking responsibility for themselves and stop trying to find scapegoats. There is the real problem, a lack of responsibilty because liberals want to hand too much to the irresponsible on a silver platter and then it becomes a matter of entitlement. Also parents need to take responsibility too. My children will not be watching bad shows until they are old enough and I feel they are reasonable enough to separate right from wrong. Then they can watch whatever they want.

The middle class disappearing is not the upper class fault for getting richer, it is the lower and middle classes fault for being irresponsible and buying so many of their services and products to make the upper class richer and the lower and middle classes poorer.
WTF. I didn't make any mention of censorship nor did I talk about the rich. I talked about the general collapse of social mores and institutions among the lower middle class. Do you disagree? If not, WTF are you arguing about with me?

And you might think your children are reasonable enough (every parent thinks that BTW), but you really have no idea what your children is doing behind your back.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:04 PM
 
Location: very new to Ossining NY
221 posts, read 326,651 times
Reputation: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by PittNewbie View Post
A sad reality.

Just read an article on liine that highlights what we all know already... the decline of America's middle class.

Very sad.
What is your perimeters for "middle class"? Between what and what income levels?

I suspect this is right, but what is "middle class" in terms of the average income?

I just know this, that my parents had a house paid off before I was out of elementary school; my mother didn't have to work until I was a pre-teen and it was because of my father's medical condition, not the economy; they had 2 vehicles, one was for my father's business, and they got new ones every six years or so; we took vacations to Florida almost every spring break; etc. Do any of their children share the same lifestyle without crushing debt? Don't make me laugh! Even my brother, the most successful one, is up to his eyeballs in debt, stuck with a house he can't sell, and now living in a two bedroom apartment - three people, a dog and a cat. The only "vacations" he takes yearly is for his job, a good one and he is well paid for it, but he has never been able to support his family on only his income. The house they have is in FL and is a large and very roomy house, but it isn't any grander in size than the house my parents owned. What does that sound like? It sounds to me as if the middle class is getting weaker by the second, and has been for a long time. Those with the "stuff" are often, as my bro., living beyond their means, really.

My father was a skilled labor, not a college graduate. I was the first college grad. in my family, and economically, I've never been as well off as they were. My story is very common, I hear it all the time.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Lower East Side, Milwaukee, WI
2,945 posts, read 4,150,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianIvanov View Post
So do you want the government to step in and take control of what people can and can not watch now? If someone is that immature and irresponsible that they let a freaking television show dictate their life then they have problems not the television set. Nobody is forcing them to watch it, they chose to watch it and now you want to blame their problems on the television? Their problems stem from how they live their lives. People need to start taking responsibility for themselves and stop trying to find scapegoats. There is the real problem, a lack of responsibilty because liberals want to hand too much to the irresponsible on a silver platter and then it becomes a matter of entitlement.
Says the person who's daddy gave him a company.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:33 PM
 
Location: very new to Ossining NY
221 posts, read 326,651 times
Reputation: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsw View Post
Meaningless stats

Define middle income and define a middle income standard of living (US middle-income suburbia often has a superior SOL vs allegedly wealthy SOL in EU/Asia)

And consider how many of today's wealthiest in US are relatively young guys who grew up in middle-income suburbia all over US and figured out how to make a few bucks without handouts from daddy or other taxpayers

Nowhere in world has as much upward mobility as does US for those willing to work to achieve, despite what commies in media/govt would like to claim

Entitlement nonsense is stuff of a welfare state, like US' unionized gvt "workers" or EU slackers
And what percentage of the population do these wealthy young guys constitute, about 1%, or less, I think.

Personally, I've never aspired to have an income = to the revenue of a small country, but I would have, and still would, like to live a modest lifestyle where I can have a few luxuries, now and then, travel, once every 2-3 years, not even overseas, although I'd love to see Africa (probably never will without stealing kids ed. fund), just to a state across the country, be able to save toward the next generation's education so they aren't starting a career with $1-200,000 in debt. I've worked hard, I'm better educated than my parents, and I don't have nearly the solid financial stability they had. Some of it is my fault, but some of it is that the price of everything has rapidly outgrown my income.

Upward mobility should also be for the remaining 99%, not just a handful. I don't know of anyone who isn't struggling, and they are educated and hard-working, also, not willing to be amoral or voraciously greedy as some of those "guys" you admire so much are.

I put it this way when I hear people saying they don't want to share their slice of the pie. OK, if your slice is half of the pie and everyone else can only get 1/30 of the pie, and you keep eating this way for years, what will happen?? You'll get fat and probably diabetic, and the other 30 pie slicers will get mean, food starved, disgruntled and too thin. So, NOBODY is in good shape. Does that sound like a progressive and prosperous economic model for a wealthy country? It sounds as though all the pie eaters are going to be in serious trouble, soon.
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Old 07-30-2010, 03:42 PM
 
Location: very new to Ossining NY
221 posts, read 326,651 times
Reputation: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by PittNewbie View Post
A sad reality.

Just read an article on liine that highlights what we all know already... the decline of America's middle class.

Very sad.
Also, my parents saved toward my education. I was able to pay off the two loans I needed before I was 25. When I hear kids saying they are straddled with almost $100,000 in debt for getting a college education, my heart really goes out to them. I really worry about what kind of a future the little ones, such as my 4- year-old niece will have.
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Soon to be Southlake, TX
648 posts, read 1,417,424 times
Reputation: 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastSideMKE View Post
Says the person who's daddy gave him a company.
I worked as a laborer when I was 18 until I was 21. Then I moved up to super, and then owner. There was no handover it was hard work involved. If you want to try and downplay something make sure you actually know how it worked out before yapping your fat mouth.
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:11 PM
 
Location: IN
20,852 posts, read 35,958,846 times
Reputation: 13297
I entirely agree with this. The middle class is not faring well with the exception of some areas. One did not have to have a dual income household to do fairly well back 20+ years ago in some parts of the US. However, I think the slowing to non-existant job growth of the prior decade, the exponential increases in education costs, rapid rise in health insurance costs, cost of living increases, tax increases, etc have made dual income the norm- even for the previously low cost areas. Those that have jobs are working even harder (my dad was a systems analyst and the company often gave him the responsibilities and stress of several employees via cost cutting measures). Wages have not really risen with respect to other costs increasing. Now we are entering a period of deflation... Yes, another jobless recovery is at our doorstep and the middle class will take it on the chin again! I really wonder how many people can even afford to have kid(s) these days. I sometimes struggle with building some investments and savings as a SINGLE person!!!
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:13 PM
 
291 posts, read 652,982 times
Reputation: 277
ditto
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