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Old 08-06-2010, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY, Northern CA
24 posts, read 33,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topgear View Post
Residents recognize the area as a whole, frankly thats all the matters. Its not like we drive the 280 and hit a demarcation line. Furthermore, if you look at any photos, you see houses and buildings that ring the bay continuously, no one that lives here consider this area as fragmented in any way.
Agreed, in reality it's all that matters...I'm coming at it more from the angle of relevance in city comparison threads on C-D.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX/Chicago, IL/Houston, TX/Washington, DC
10,171 posts, read 12,802,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post

Hell based on stats Jacksonville Fla is vastly larger than SF
Not since 2008, San Francisco took over the number 12 spot. Jacksonville down to 13.

But yeah I know the point you were trying to make, and agreed.
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Old 08-06-2010, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,509 posts, read 28,173,289 times
Reputation: 7598
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunTime View Post
However, on this site, anytime people want to compare SF metro vs. other metros, this issue arises. Then Bay area people want to use the CSA (which is unfair, I agree)
That happens with a lot of city that is in close proximity to other metros.
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:08 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,166,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunTime View Post
Not to mention the boundary just seems so arbitrary...I just want to know how the census came to determine this separation.

They cut at municipal boundaries - there are a few examples where the cut is right in the middle of UA space - this is the other issue even for what IMHO is a better census metric, the MSA cutoff also cuts off the UA count even in areas like SF/SJ where it is strongly maintained all the way down the bay from SF straight thru SJ

here is an image of the cut line on the Philly MSA/UA as an example you can see the lack of cohesion (this is from a ranrock post in another thread but a very good image) and BTW this is only 11 miles as the crow flies from the Philadelphia proper border.

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Old 08-06-2010, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY, Northern CA
24 posts, read 33,976 times
Reputation: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post

i think the media markets are interesting in that they do not take anything but distance and demographic similarities in to play

Some metros are shown to be much larger under this methodology

DMA Rankings - US TV Households by Market (http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettrack/us_hh_by_dma.asp - broken link)
This is interesting. I never thought of using DMA's for statistical comparison of metros. But, in a lot of ways, their methodology makes more sense than the census' breakups of metros into MSA's. Maybe the census' "25% commuting" is the issue at play...(although I still find it hard to believe that 25% of the northern peninsula population doesn't commute down south for work). But, in my opinion, that requirement for a metro doesn't seem to work well in multi-nodal cities that have job locations sprinkled all over the area (at least, from what I can tell).

And yes, splitting off mercer country NJ from Philly's metro is pretty illogical. Do more people in the Trenton/Princeton area really commute to NYC than Philly????
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY, Northern CA
24 posts, read 33,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
They cut at municipal boundaries - there are a few examples where the cut is right in the middle of UA space - this is the other issue even for what IMHO is a better census metric, the MSA cutoff also cuts off the UA count even in areas like SF/SJ where it is strongly maintained all the way down the bay from SF straight thru SJ

here is an image of the cut line on the Philly MSA/UA as an example you can see the lack of cohesion (this is from a ranrock post in another thread but a very good image)
Interesting...I understand the municipal boundaries represent cutoffs often, but the boundary in that picture makes no sense.

I also seem to remember seeing an image of the SF/SJ MSA boundary, and the cutoff didn't seem to make sense (I think Montclair18 posted it somewhere in another thread). I also remember hearing that it cuts right through an office park? I could be mistaken, though...
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:21 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,166,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunTime View Post
This is interesting. I never thought of using DMA's for statistical comparison of metros. But, in a lot of ways, their methodology makes more sense than the census' breakups of metros into MSA's. Maybe the census' "25% commuting" is the issue at play...(although I still find it hard to believe that 25% of the northern peninsula population doesn't commute down south for work). But, in my opinion, that requirement for a metro doesn't seem to work well in multi-nodal cities that have job locations sprinkled all over the area (at least, from what I can tell).

And yes, splitting off mercer country NJ from Philly's metro is pretty illogical. Do more people in the Trenton/Princeton area really commute to NYC than Philly????
No the interplay with the Philly MSA is more than 2 to 1, but this is complex interplay. the next county Bucks, PA is actually increasing its NY predisposition but still exceeds the 25% for the Philly MSA. There is a very large job market that straddles the Mercer/Middlesex/Somerset county boundaries, some NY Metro, Some NY CSA, some historic Philly MSA etc. and this also is very commutable and prominent among counties that are retained in the Philly MSA - it is also very multi-nodal in job markets, needed for the 10+ million that live within 30 miles of that central NJ location. people commute in every direction etc.

And all this is not to say NY is stealling all the jobs - the Philly market continues to be very stable and growing - just a ton of opportunities overall really for jobs etc.
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:25 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,166,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunTime View Post
Interesting...I understand the municipal boundaries represent cutoffs often, but the boundary in that picture makes no sense.

I also seem to remember seeing an image of the SF/SJ MSA boundary, and the cutoff didn't seem to make sense (I think Montclair18 posted it somewhere in another thread). I also remember hearing that it cuts right through an office park? I could be mistaken, though...

yes I remember (was also a very good image a few months back) - people could park in one MSA and walk accross the street to their job in another...
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:45 AM
 
10,930 posts, read 5,041,456 times
Reputation: 4890
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
No the interplay with the Philly MSA is more than 2 to 1, but this is complex interplay. the next county Bucks, PA is actually increasing its NY predisposition but still exceeds the 25% for the Philly MSA. There is a very large job market that straddles the Mercer/Middlesex/Somerset county boundaries, some NY Metro, Some NY CSA, some historic Philly MSA etc. and this also is very commutable and prominent among counties that are retained in the Philly MSA - it is also very multi-nodal in job markets, needed for the 10+ million that live within 30 miles of that central NJ location. people commute in every direction etc.

And all this is not to say NY is stealling all the jobs - the Philly market continues to be very stable and growing - just a ton of opportunities overall really for jobs etc.
I think this multi-nodal job center scenario is one that the Census' methods really aren't adequate for. For instance, in NJ or Silicon Valley, many people commute to what would otherwise be known as "suburbs" for work (major pharma's in NJ and the tech companies in SV).

How then do you break up this kind of metro area? These people really aren't working in Philly/NYC or SJ/SF (respectively), but rather new job centers are being created outside of the cities. The model of major city in the center with people commuting to the city from the surrounding areas doesn't work well in these more linear/ring regions.

I agree with the theme of this thread that on City-Data (particularly city vs city), MSA's are not the best metric of comparison. If that's true, I wonder what is better? Urban Areas?
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:52 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,166,272 times
Reputation: 7739
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyMac18 View Post
I think this multi-nodal job center scenario is one that the Census' methods really aren't adequate for. For instance, in NJ or Silicon Valley, many people commute to what would otherwise be known as "suburbs" for work (major pharma's in NJ and the tech companies in SV).

How then do you break up this kind of metro area? These people really aren't working in Philly/NYC or SJ/SF (respectively), but rather new job centers are being created outside of the cities. The model of major city in the center with people commuting to the city from the surrounding areas doesn't work well in these more linear/ring regions.

I agree with the theme of this thread that on City-Data (particularly city vs city), MSA's are not the best metric of comparison. If that's true, I wonder what is better? Urban Areas?

The Pharma belt goes largely under the radar on this site (this swath from Wilmington DE to southern CT is an economic monster), quite honestly can compete with just about industry and any metro/s

Healthcare is the single biggest component of the US economy and growing faster than any other aspect...
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