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Old 10-04-2010, 03:12 PM
 
Location: New York City
4,036 posts, read 8,645,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Do you think Scottish Americans are the "invisible immigrants"? Also, why do so many Scottish Americans refuse to embrace their ancestor's heritage?
My mother's family is Scottish. They are proud of their ancestry but in a very restrained way. Being overly concerned with ethnicity is considered vulgar. Only subtle things are acceptable, like shortbread at Christmas, single-malt, or the odd tartan pillow.

My grandfather was extremely racist and he hated Irish Catholics most of all. I suspect that the Scots-Irish were the Irish Catholics of the 18th century. When Irish Catholics started immigrating in the 19th century, the Scots-Irish merged into the "WASP Establishment" because they were Protestants (much like the Dutch and French Huguenots). There was no need to hyphenate their identity.

Scots seem to live by the maxim, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." They took over the English throne (and arguably the American presidency). Many things that people associate with the British Empire are largely Scottish in form, like banking, trading practices, medicine, engineering and many inventions.
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Greater Houston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
Scots seem to live by the maxim, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." They took over the English throne (and arguably the American presidency).
Not for long. The Stuarts were the monarchs for less than a century when the Hanover's were invited in because the remaining Stuarts were Catholic. The throne has been occupied by Germans ever since (Yes, Elizabeth II is a Hanover; they changed their name to the more patriotic sounding Windsor during the anti-German sentiment of WWI.)
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:09 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
Not for long. The Stuarts were the monarchs for less than a century when the Hanover's were invited in because the remaining Stuarts were Catholic. The throne has been occupied by Germans ever since (Yes, Elizabeth II is a Hanover; they changed their name to the more patriotic sounding Windsor during the anti-German sentiment of WWI.)
It is interesting to think that England has not been ruled by the English for the most part in almost 1,000 years. Most of the monarchs have been Norman, Welsh, Scottish, or German.

That said, I find the Scottish/English 'interface' for lack of a better word to be fascinating.
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:31 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
Not for long. The Stuarts were the monarchs for less than a century when the Hanover's were invited in because the remaining Stuarts were Catholic. The throne has been occupied by Germans ever since (Yes, Elizabeth II is a Hanover; they changed their name to the more patriotic sounding Windsor during the anti-German sentiment of WWI.)
Her mother was a Scot.
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:48 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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It certainly is true that over time nationality (or regionalism) takes precedence over bloodlines. You saw that during the American Civil War in Appalachia when Ulster Scots in TN, VA, NC, and GA fought heavily for the Confederacy while their kinfolk in KY, WV, PA, and MD fought heavily for the Union.
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Northern Ireland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowlane View Post
Scotland The term "Scots-Irish" refers to people whose Protestant ancestors had moved from Scotland to settle in Northern Ireland in the 1600s. .
Wrong, so wrong.

The first wave of settlers during the plantation settlement had a ratio of English settlers out numbering the Scottish settlers, the second wave of settlers saw a lot more Scots arriving than English. mixing had already begun between Scot and English settlers Before the great influx of the Scots.

Also, soldiers who had fought for Oliver Cromwell were given land during the Ulster plantations, most of these came from the west midlands region of England.after a few generations and mixing between settlers (Scots marrying English, English marrying Scot) they set sale for the New world.

those original English settlers will be turning in their graves now, knowing that their descendants in a new world are called SCOTS-IRISH.

I'm a Ulsterman of Scots and English blood.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
Most Scots (In Scotland) and the Ulster Scots (Scots-Irish) are of predominantly Anglo-Saxon background. To be 'Scottish' is to assume a national identity that is comprised of both Germanic, lowland Scots of Anglo-Saxon heritage and Gaelic,the Highlanders and Islanders, who long ago compromised a state.

The Scottish/English divide is one of national politics not ethnicity. In fact, I once knew a Scot who was an activist in preserving the Scots dialect of English, Lallans, which is much closer to the Old English dialects spoken in Anglo-Saxon England than our modern English dialects (think Robbie Burns). When pressed, He claimed more right to the mantle of Anglo-Saxonism than the English claiming, "They're all bloody French down there!"

Braveheart is a ridiculously imagined take on Scottish-English hostilities from virtually every angle (no pun intended). In reality, the Scottish forces were led by Anglo and Gaelic-Normans fighting the English Anglo-Normans.
Fantastic post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
I disagree that there are few ethnic differences btw the Scottish (or Welsh) and the English. By and large today's Scots and Welsh are descended from the original inhabitants in Britain, the Celts. They arrived on the island in 500 BC. It would be another 900 years before any large scale immigration of Angles, Saxons, and Jutes arrived from mainland Europe. It would be another 1500 years before the arrival of the Normans.

In an attempt to dominate the Scots the Normans did install Norman rulers throughout Scotland. However intermarriage btw Celts and Anglo Normans at the ground level was very rare. Many people in Northern England have as much Celtic blood as Anglo or Norman
The lowland scots have more in common with the English than the Highland Scots.

The Border Reivers clans show this. one day they would be English, the next day they would be Scots.
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:16 PM
 
Location: NYC/Orlando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckzona View Post
I have noticed though that i rarely hear someone say "i am Scottish" though. I am rougly 50% irish with some scottish, german, polish, and italian thrown in.
Interesting- I always tell people I'm "mostly Scottish", although that's not totally true (I have a lot of Austrian, Dutch, and other things in me); people are inquisitive about where my red hair comes from. They almost always assume I'm Irish.
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:25 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portadown_Madman View Post

those original English settlers will be turning in their graves now, knowing that their descendants in a new world are called SCOTS-IRISH.

I'm a Ulsterman of Scots and English blood.
From a 2010 Northern Ireland perspective you are totally correct. However, for Americans whose N.I. ancestors immigrated in the 1700s the truth is more complex.

The wave of 18th century immigration out of Ulster was driven by Queen Anne's edict of 1703 which severely restricted the freedom of Scottish Presbyterians to worship, while forcing English Anglicanism as the dominant faith. Because of this the Ulster Immigrants arriving in America were overwhelmingly of Scottish Presbyterian descent compared to English Anglican.

I have a family tree similar to many in the Southern Appalachians of America. Around half of my family tree immigrated from Ulster. Of those I have only found 3 (out of many dozens) of Ulster ancestors who had English surnames. Everyone else is of Scottish ancestry.

Because of the Edict of 1705 and the subsequent out migration of Scots today's Ulster is much more evenly split between English and Scottish protestants.

From Wikipedia...

It was only after the 1690s that Scottish settlers and their descendants, the majority of whom were Presbyterian, gained numeric superiority in Ulster. Along with Catholic Irish, they were legally disadvantaged by the Penal Laws, which gave full rights only to members of the state church (the Church of Ireland), who were mainly Anglo-Irish and converts or the descendants of English settlers. For this reason, up until the 19th century, there was considerable disharmony between Dissenters and the ruling Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland. With the enforcement of Queen Anne's 1703 Test Act, which caused further discrimination against all who did not participate in the established church, considerable numbers of Ulster-Scots migrated to the colonies in British America throughout the 18th century.
Towards the end of the 18th century many Ulster-Scots Presbyterians ignored religious differences and, along with many Catholic Irish, joined the United Irishmen to participate in the Irish Rebellion of 1798 in support of republican and egalitarian ideals.
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Old 10-07-2010, 03:07 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,116,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I'm not really convinced that the people identifying as "American" are solely or even primarily Scottish/Scots-Irish. Many here have said that, and it looks plausible the majority are once I looked at the counties where people identify as such, but I think I'd like some evidence on that. The South received a good deal of English immigration, some even after the Revolution, and probably some Welsh or Cornish too. Also looking up "American, ethnicity" it seems plausible some who identify as "American" are ethnically mixed. I know that there were mixed people in Appalachia who found being deemed mixed upsetting or socially disadvantageous. If you were 1/8th black, 1/8th Cherokee, 1/8th German, 1/4th French, and 3/8th Scottish I could see back when just saying "American." And some just mean it as a political statement of patriotism, which I'm not sure is necessarily unique to Scots-Irish Americans.
I think as many would have English ancestry.
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Old 10-08-2010, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Northern Ireland
53 posts, read 58,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
I have a family tree similar to many in the Southern Appalachians of America. Around half of my family tree immigrated from Ulster. Of those I have only found 3 (out of many dozens) of Ulster ancestors who had English surnames. Everyone else is of Scottish ancestry.

.
Scots highlander or Scots lowlander?

The vast majority of Scots lowlanders are descended from the Anglo Saxons. don't forget,the Ancient kingdom of Northumbria was settled by Angles, swathes of southern Scotland and south east Scotland once belonged to the English.

That's why you'll see many lowland Scots have English sounding surnames.

Prime examples..

Andrew Jackson(ulster Scot presbyterian and President ) Jackson is a English surname.

Jim Webb (Author of born fighting how the Scots-Irish shaped America) is another English surname.

White

Stevens

Davy

Lomas

Smith

Dunn

Are all surnames that are associated with Scots Presbyterians, yet they are all English surnames.

Hell, I'm Presbyterian, yet my surname is English.
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