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View Poll Results: Does the location of a state change as the demographics of that state changes?
Yes, Georgia, NC and NY are going to become western states soon as the mexican population increases 3 9.38%
No, a Southern State is Southern because it is in the South, no matter who moves there 22 68.75%
I don't know 5 15.63%
I live by misconceptions, so I am going by what the crowd says today 2 6.25%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-05-2010, 08:23 PM
 
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Quote:
when in fact it is.
It's more of an opinion than a fact, though.
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Old 11-05-2010, 10:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
It's a combination of things. Texas and southern Florida were never really "integral" parts of the "Old South" to begin with. Southern Florida was mainly swamps and was struggling through a long series of wars with the Seminole, while Texas was more of a frontier region.
With all due respect, you are wrong.

As concerns the "Old South" definition, the settled part of Texas was very much Old South. It was the most productive "cotton state" in the South, and one of the many reasons those from the southeast were flooding into the state. The title "Empire State of the South" was first applied to Texas, in 1858. How many know that?

Right or wrong, it was also one of the original Confederate states. True, it was a frontier state, but that became the next chapter. Adventurous South. And after the War it was anglo and black Southerners who completed the settlement of the state and gave it its essential character. Yes, demographics are changing, but no way around -- and should never be forgotten -- that the basic culture and history of Texas is solidy rooted in the white and black duality. It was not always pleasant, but it has a connection that is Southern.

Quote:
This means that these places never defined "southern" or "southern culture" to begin with. A place like Savannah or Charleston or Atlanta did define these terms just by definition.
No, it just means you are proceeding from a faulty premise. There is not a reason in the world why Charleston or Savannah -- nor Mississppi or Alabama -- should be the standard of "The South". I venture to say that anyone who defines "The South" by such abbreviated criteria is either a hopeless "Deep South Purist", or else doesn't really doesn't have an understanding of the true history of the South.

Quote:
So, as long as parts of Texas or Florida adopted the cultural norms that were developed in the core of the south, then they had a claim to being "southern." But if that is abandoned, they really don't remain southern.
Again, this is a faulty and false premise. For one thing, the "core" of the South" was NOT developed in the middle of it. There was nothing to "adopt" so much as to naturally become part of an extended family. It evolved and migrated from the eastern coast during the ante-bellum age. Really started around 1830. The South -- the definition and embracing of it -- spread westward as southeastern migration went that way. The "idea" of a Southern identity did not start with Mississippi or Alabama or Georgia.

Hard as it might be to fathom, there are many of us in the Upper and western South who consider ourselves just as Southern as anybody in the Deep South. And can back it up. With both soul, heart, and fact!

Last edited by TexasReb; 11-05-2010 at 11:35 PM..
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Old 11-06-2010, 01:38 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,969,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
E

I never denied that it shares sw culture. What I am saying is whys do people always jump on people who state things like Dfw is the biggest metro in the south when in fact it is.
Many people like to correct others, whether they need correction or not, as it makes them feel smarter. I imagine plenty of people have wrongly "corrected" someone's use of who/whom to make themselves look smart.

Also some think of Texas only as Southwestern, not as a large state that has both Southern and Southwestern areas.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
It's more of an opinion than a fact, though.
are you kidding me? just open any map of the US you will see that Texas is in the south, can't be more factual than that.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,509 posts, read 28,173,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Many people like to correct others, whether they need correction or not, as it makes them feel smarter. I imagine plenty of people have wrongly "corrected" someone's use of who/whom to make themselves look smart.

Also some think of Texas only as Southwestern, not as a large state that has both Southern and Southwestern areas.
I have noticed that a lot on here. sometimes they even get heated up vehemently correcting someone on something they are wrong about
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:19 AM
 
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I am confused by the original question. Why are we suddenly asking about hispanics changing states? I personally feel we need to back up a bit and discuss the influx of Northerners into North Carolina and Georgia.

It disturbs me how North Carolina and Virginia are now more or less parts of the Northeast more than they are the South. So is most of Florida. Texas, to me has always been part Southern, part Midwestern, and part Latin, so the transformations there aren't quite as shocking. Florida was originally part Latin too, and then when Southerners started moving into the state, they tended not to populate the peninsula part in high densities, which explains why Northerners overtook it so easily.

I guess Virginia and North Carolina have always been on the border between North and South, so I guess they aren't surprising either, but the current trends really disturb me.

Georgia and Tennessee are on their way to becoming the next North Carolina. It is ridiculous.

So to me, and many others, you have to be inhabited by Southerners in order to be Southern. Southern is about culture, sorry, and not location. I don't know of anybody who considers Maryland Southern anymore. Florida kind of goes back and forth. I can see how Virginia and North Carolina are Southern to someone from New York, but to someone from Alabama like me, they aren't, really. Eastern Texas, to me, is Southern, just like most of Oklahoma, as well as Southern Missouri.

But having said all this I don't know how to answer your poll question. We are jumping far ahead of ourselves by talking about how Georgia and North Carolina could be considered Western when they are taken over by hispanics. By the time we get to that point, most of the country will be in the same position too.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX/London, UK
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As someone born and raised in Central Texas I have always felt Texan, not Southern. I have never felt it as a part of the "Old South" although if you were from far east Texas I can understand some connection to the south. To me Texas is its own region and does its own thing. I believe for a while there more cotton was being shipped out of Galveston than anywhere else in the US, even New Orleans. Anyway so ya I have always felt Texan, not Southern.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
yep. Texas was sparcely populated back then. It was a spanish territory but not a largely used one. There was uproar even a little stir in things when someone suggested that German should be the major language in Texas.

I think the second most widely spoken language was not even English it was Czech
I have had native Texans argue with me about this point, but facts are facts.

For the reasons you mention above, Texas (when looking at its entire region) has always been settled from Midwestern, Southern, and Latin cultural hearths. The German and Czech migration into that state was more representative of what was happening in the Midwest. It was rare in the South.

I had a boyfriend from Texas with a real thick Southern accent (I am from Alabama). I always assumed he was just as waspy as I was. When he told me he was part Czech, I was shocked.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:51 AM
 
126 posts, read 272,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
I think you people confuse southern influence with in the south.

If Florida is not in the south, then where is it?

Just as Texas has its spanish influence, Louisiana ha sits french influence, but that plays no part in its location.

So when German was just about the most widely spoken language in Texas, what part of the US was it considered to be in?
You see things from an odd and interesting perspective. Tell people South of the panhandle in Florida they are "Southern" and see what kind of reaction you get.

Wikipedia has all sorts of articles discussing what makes up Southern culture.

Southern culture is a mixture of British, French, and Spanish influence. The British influence started from the Carolinas and moved westward. When I say "British" I am including Scottish and Irish , an ethnic group that started off settling further inland in the hills unlike the English.

The French and Spanish (not Mexican) influences in the South are older than the British, so I find it funny the way you mention them the way you do above as if the much later Mexican and German influence should be given the same treatment. There are people in Southern Alabama with Spanish ancestory, and it is NOT because they recently came here from Cuba or Mexico. Everybody knows that the French in Louisiana are Southern.

Then of course, there is the African American influence and Native American.

Once you start talking about Italian, German, Czech, Polish, Russian, and Swedish ancestories, you are talking about ancestories that are more or less foreign to the South. They may exist in small pockets, but they don't make up the overall cultures like they do in the Northeast and Midwest.

So when you start talking about Germans and Czechs migrating into Texas in the 1800's, that is when Texas starts taking on a more Midwestern flavor.

And yes, I agree that the RECENT Latin migration into Texas would be more or less Southwestern, although that is an element that has been present in Texas almost from the beginning.

To answer your question, when speaking of geography, yes, Florida is in the South. When saying "Southern" as a cultural reference, then please be careful how you use it. The peninsula of Florida for the most part is more Northeastern than Southern. This isn't hard to figure out.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX/London, UK
709 posts, read 1,159,189 times
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The German migration into Texas started in 1848. Back then much of Europe was having revolutions and a large nationalistic democratic German population lost theirs and started a big German migration into Texas (mostly into the Hill Country). The German migration into Texas lasted into the early 1900's. I believe they also had a pretty strong migration into Ohio, although not quite in the same numbers as they did into Texas. I also have read that many of them sent their kids to fight on the side of the Union during the Civil War even though Texas as a state was Confederate (obviously).
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