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Old 12-24-2010, 08:39 AM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,592 posts, read 12,334,192 times
Reputation: 15493

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I am a Pennsylvanian, living in Philadelphia (born in New York).

I do not have a problem with the Confederate Flag, whether it's Gen. Beauregard's Battle Blag and Naval Ensign (the most famous one) or The Stars And Bars (the first official one), or "The Stainless Banner" (the second official one) or the one that came after that. To me it's historical.

My ancestry is not from the South and I would not have any reason to fly it. It is not a symbol of race hatred to me, but I concede that racist groups did try to co-opt it. If people what to use it as a symbol of states rights and anti-federal government, that's fine with me even if I don't subscribe to those positions. I agree with those who state the revolutionary war "Don't Tread On Me Flag" might be a better symbol.

As a Pennsylvanian all I can think of was all those brave boys, wearing blue or gray who died on those hot summer days at Gettysburg. Most of the valiant boys from the South were not slave holders.
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Old 12-24-2010, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC NoVA
1,105 posts, read 1,947,579 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGC301 View Post
Your analogy is wrong because the land wasn't vacant when your ancestors got here. Vacant means "unoccupied" or "not in use", neither of which describes North America when they got here.
it's legally vacant. as barbaric as what we did sounds, that's how the world's worked for thousands of years.

Quote:
You keep going on about how the land wasn't owned, according to the European concept of land ownership. The Native Americans did not have a concept of individual land ownership. The land belonged to the tribe, and remained theirs for as long as they used it productively. Just because they did not share the same views at the Europeans doesn't mean they had no right to the land.
legally unowned. which is why it led to war a lot, and they lost, so we got the land. that's how it works.

Quote:
There is even something similar in the current legal system today, which can be seen in real estate laws regarding adverse possession. Basically, it states that if a person, who does not legally "own" a piece of land, uses and occupies it for a continuous period of time (the amount of time varies based on the jurisdiction), that person then has legal rights to the property.
show me this bs law. all land is owned in this country either privately or federally, neither of which a random person is authorized to build on.

Quote:
Regarding how they were removed from their land, I suggest you do a little research. I remember from some of your other posts that you're still in high school, maybe you haven't gotten to "American History" yet. Maybe ask one of your teachers about the forced conversion to Christianity, use as slave labor, Trail of Tears, etc... It's not my job to teach you something you should have learned in school.
i had straight a's in history. nice try. that stuff isn't relevant to the fact that the land was unowned.

Quote:
Anyway, the only reason I brought up Native Americans was in response to you saying that anyone living in America today should respect what your ancestors did. I can think of very few things that the Native Americans should be respectful of them for.
i respect native americans. i don't go on their reservations waving flags in their faces.

Quote:
Lastly, you didn't answer my question. Since you flat out stated that you don't care about their ancestors or culture, why should they care about yours?
i said i don't care about their ancestors culture because they're in my country and they're not respecting mine. if i went to el salvador i wouldn't wave american flags in their face at school and i would respect their ancestors and country.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in Texas
5,230 posts, read 11,671,977 times
Reputation: 2642
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
after 9 pages, i would think people would get the message. us using the flag has nothing to do with still living the civil war because we don't. we support the flag in support of states rights. i have it on my jet ski and truck in support of states rights such as arizona law.
I don't usually have time to read all the pages of a long thread so if it were explained as you've explained it above, I guess I missed it. Even so, what I wrote is my opinion and that doesn't really matter to anyone but me. If the flag is flown on every porch in the south, so be it. I just know it's not something I would want to do. I will fly only one flag and that is Old Glory. I know; I'm just stubborn.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:06 AM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,504 posts, read 17,728,729 times
Reputation: 30796
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
it's legally vacant. as barbaric as what we did sounds, that's how the world's worked for thousands of years.
Furthermore that is how Native American groups treated the situation. The indigenous tribes were in flux and they were just as guilty of taking land by force and genocide as European settlers.

Many Native Americans are resentful of White, American liberals who use the logic that because Central and South Americans are indigenous to the Americas that they have some special right to move about into North America. The Puebloans fought to keep the Spanish and the Nahuatl out of the Rio Grande Valley.

To American liberals, all Native Americans are the same whether they be Pueblo, Navajo, Iroquois, Mayan, or Incan.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in Texas
5,230 posts, read 11,671,977 times
Reputation: 2642
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Is that so bad, CC?

What do you think the flag of "Don't Tread On Me" or the original "Betsy Ross" (in legend) flag of the 13 Colonies were? The Star Spangled Banner, if not a banner of rebellion? What was the original Declaration of Independence if not a declaration of rebellion? What was the Constitution and its Bill of Rights except a statement of affirmation that government derives its just powers from the constent of the governed. Which, in turn, was a declaration of rebellion against all previously accepted in the old world?

And so far as the part goes about still rebeling? Can you elaborate? Hell, a goodly part of the whole country is "rebelling" against Washington, D.C. It is not, anymore, just a "Southern thing."

And as it was, anyway, the Confederacy was never formed out of a desire to overthrow the United States government. This is why that "treason" thing is just plain silly...and probably reflects on what a lousy educational system we have, today.

Here is what it amounted to: American Southern states against American Northern states. It was not a repudiation of the original Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Both of which had been mostly written by Southern men.
Your knowledge of history totally surpasses mine so with what you know and what I don't know, I guess it isn't so bad. This whole country is full of rebelling people for one reason or another and I guess that will never change. It just seems to me that many southerners still are fighting the Civil War, but that's just my opinion. I really don't care one way or the other. I just want peace and contentment for all and sometimes I wonder why in the world I even bother with city-data. Geez, I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.

God bless this country and all the states therein.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:14 AM
 
56,582 posts, read 80,870,855 times
Reputation: 12500
I've seen the flag on occasion here in Upstate NY. I think some use it to symbolize a rebel attitude, but I'm sure other fly it for other reasons.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:41 AM
 
Location: PG County, MD
302 posts, read 991,999 times
Reputation: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
it's legally vacant. as barbaric as what we did sounds, that's how the world's worked for thousands of years.
I'm well aware of how the world worked for thousands of years. That doesn't mean that people today are required to respect many of the things that people back then did, whether it be genocide, slavery, forced conversion to the conqueror's religion, witch trials, etc... I understand how things worked back then, but it doesn't mean I respect or support a lot of the things that happened.

Quote:
legally unowned. which is why it led to war a lot, and they lost, so we got the land. that's how it works.

As I've said several times already, if the only concept of "legal ownership" you understand is the one put in place by the US legal system, than of course it was legally unowned. They had their own concepts of land ownership.

For example, China has a different system of land ownership than the US does. This does not mean that you can go there and claim a piece of land for yourself and declare that it was "legally unowned" under the system of land ownership that you follow.


Quote:
show me this bs law. all land is owned in this country either privately or federally, neither of which a random person is authorized to build on.
Educate yourself- Adverse Possession Law



Quote:
i said i don't care about their ancestors culture because they're in my country and they're not respecting mine.
They are also in their country.

Look, in terms of nationality, we have some of the same ancestors. I'm Irish, Italian, and German. I understand that they may have done some great things, but that doesn't mean that I have to turn a blind eye to some of the atrocities they committed at the same time.

It also seems very egotistical to demand that other people respect your ancestors. If somebody wants to respect mine, great. If not, oh well, it doesn't affect my life one way or the other.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,049,526 times
Reputation: 1609
I found a conferate flag at a discount place. I cut it up and use it to mop up accidents made by my dogs and cat. I find that appropriate.
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
3,191 posts, read 4,134,207 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonjj View Post
I found a conferate flag at a discount place. I cut it up and use it to mop up accidents made by my dogs and cat. I find that appropriate.
I find that disrespectful, but ironic that you live in a city that Lincoln put under Martial Law.
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,049,526 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert kid View Post
I find that disrespectful, but ironic that you live in a city that Lincoln put under Martial Law.

hmmm. Arizona. The home of Wayne Newton, oops-I mean John McCain. The state that did not want a holiday for ML King. The state that wants to ban immigrants.
Opinions vary and yes, Maryland was at the center of a huge controversy and war in the mid-1800s.
Bet to say there are probably more confederate waving flags in Arizona than Maryland in today's times. Even more reason to mop up the sh!! with them.
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