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Old 12-25-2010, 04:46 PM
 
Location: PG County, MD
302 posts, read 991,999 times
Reputation: 151

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This will be my last post about this with you, it's not worth wasting my time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
i fight for my people before i fight for anybody else. just like i stand by a family member if they screw up.
You brought up a perfect example. Say, for example, someone in your family robbed a bank. You could still love, support, and respect that person WITHOUT respecting or supporting what they did. I'm not a Christian, but I believe there's even something in the Bible about "hating the sin, not the sinner".
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Old 12-25-2010, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC NoVA
1,105 posts, read 1,947,579 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGC301 View Post
You brought up a perfect example. Say, for example, someone in your family robbed a bank. You could still love, support, and respect that person WITHOUT respecting or supporting what they did. I'm not a Christian, but I believe there's even something in the Bible about "hating the sin, not the sinner".
these are two different scenarios. that decision would be selfish and not for the betterment of the family whereas what my ancestors did was create their ideal environment for what they visioned they wanted their descendants to grow up in.
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Old 12-25-2010, 09:51 PM
 
288 posts, read 299,653 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
The fact still remains that Europeans invaded this continent and took over without any justification, stealing land and breaking treaties with the Native people. Many Natives died because of their actions. You can't say the European imperialists were entirely innocent, because that was not the case.
You're trying to apply ethics and morals of the 21st century to the 18-19th centuries when taking lands, especially the ones that legally didn't belong to anyone was kind of a common practice, politics was a lot more cynical and unjust, and treaties had as much power as pinky swears, and were broken constantly.

Again. There was no country to invade, no government to overthrow, there were vast regions with a bunch of various tribes a lot of which were slaughtering each other long before the first colonists even got there.


Initially both parties were excited about the presence of each other on the continent. When Anglos first saw Indians they thought "Cheap labor! Awesome!" and Indians thought "Finally we got someone to make tools for us." So I don't know why are you trying to find a guilty/innocent side in this conflict when there clearly was none. All there was is just two factions who had a small disagreement over each other's place on the continent. The disagreement turned into a war, Anglos won 200+ years later. End of story.
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Old 12-25-2010, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,564,992 times
Reputation: 3232
Quote:
Originally Posted by QweffL View Post
You're trying to apply ethics and morals of the 21st century to the 18-19th centuries when taking lands, especially the ones that legally didn't belong to anyone was kind of a common practice, politics was a lot more cynical and unjust, and treaties had as much power as pinky swears, and were broken constantly.

Again. There was no country to invade, no government to overthrow, there were vast regions with a bunch of various tribes a lot of which were slaughtering each other long before the first colonists even got there.


Initially both parties were excited about the presence of each other on the continent. When Anglos first saw Indians they thought "Cheap labor! Awesome!" and Indians thought "Finally we got someone to make tools for us." So I don't know why are you trying to find a guilty/innocent side in this conflict when there clearly was none. All there was is just two factions who had a small disagreement over each other's place on the continent. The disagreement turned into a war, Anglos won 200+ years later. End of story.
Yes, I am. As a Christian, I believe in absolute morality. What's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong. What the Europeans did to the Natives was wrong. Period.
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:43 PM
 
288 posts, read 299,653 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
What the Europeans did to the Natives was wrong. Period.
Does that mean what Natives did to some European settlers like scalping women and children was right?
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Old 12-25-2010, 11:55 PM
 
10,630 posts, read 23,412,818 times
Reputation: 6702
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeycookie View Post
In my part of Ohio you see people with confederate flags flying on thier homes and I don't understand becuse this is a northern state that fought for the Union and when I ask them they act pround of it. Can some one please help me understand?
I haven't read the rest of the responses, but when I see it in the North I think racist. I did not think that when we lived in the South. In the case of the Confederate flag, I think context is everything, and right or wrong, when I see the flag being flown in a non-southern state I read that as representative of racism. In the South I think its meaning is more complex. That said, I know there are Northerners who are drawn to it for complex reasons of their own.
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:59 AM
 
Location: Austin, Texas
3,093 posts, read 4,135,176 times
Reputation: 3117
A lot of stupidity in this thread. I think the defenders of the flag saying that blacks and whites in the south have an "understanding" about it and talking about how blacks fought for the Confederacy are stupid. White southerners should not be trying to speak for blacks in this country...PERIOD. I also think the people getting all worked up over the flag and calling it a symbol of racism yet have no problem with the American flag are also silly.

As a black person I used to get all worked up over people flying that flag. But now I don't really care, we have more important things to worry about than whether some idiot wants to fly a flag or not. When you take any flag, you will most likely find a history of oppression and blodshed somewhere behind it. If some idiot wants to fly the flag on their own property, let them knock themselves out.
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Old 12-26-2010, 04:32 AM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,049,526 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by QweffL View Post
Ok. Let's try it one more time and let's just focus on North America.

What was the name of the country governed by the Natives that evil Europeans invaded and took from them?
The individual tribes that lived in the Americas had their own forms government although it hardly looked anything like the European formula.
Their customs, religious beliefs, and tribal rules and regulations were overlooked because the European newcomers looked upon them as savages in many instances. The European goal: new forms of capitol and religious conversion along with more sinister goals of genocide, enslavement, and complete removal from their land. We can not skip this part of our history.

Now, I understand QweffL's point of view: all peoples of the world regardless of race, religion, and background have dubious histories of these same practices. The European is not sole group to be mocked for this to take place. However, because we live here in North America, this has been the greatest example of genocide to take place on this land. We shouldn't overlook the fact that their were also inter-tribal wars that not much has been recorded.
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Old 12-26-2010, 04:39 AM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,049,526 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by UTHORNS96 View Post
A lot of stupidity in this thread. I think the defenders of the flag saying that blacks and whites in the south have an "understanding" about it and talking about how blacks fought for the Confederacy are stupid. White southerners should not be trying to speak for blacks in this country...PERIOD. I also think the people getting all worked up over the flag and calling it a symbol of racism yet have no problem with the American flag are also silly.

As a black person I used to get all worked up over people flying that flag. But now I don't really care, we have more important things to worry about than whether some idiot wants to fly a flag or not. When you take any flag, you will most likely find a history of oppression and blodshed somewhere behind it. If some idiot wants to fly the flag on their own property, let them knock themselves out.
That American flag represents the future to me: the ideals of this land-not the reality. I also lost a brother in a war and look upon that flag as something that represents his untimely death. He wasn't defending this land for me or my family or for Caucasions. He was fighting to support this country and ALL the people who live here. I imagine everyone can find a gripe or reason to make a joke of the flag. I am one of them. But, it is a uniter, not a divider--it represents one nation with all people. I can't overlook that. That is the big difference between our national flag and that rag that is a reminder of all that was bad-not good about this land.
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Old 12-26-2010, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
3,191 posts, read 4,134,207 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonjj View Post
That American flag represents the future to me: the ideals of this land-not the reality. I also lost a brother in a war and look upon that flag as something that represents his untimely death. He wasn't defending this land for me or my family or for Caucasions. He was fighting to support this country and ALL the people who live here. I imagine everyone can find a gripe or reason to make a joke of the flag. I am one of them. But, it is a uniter, not a divider--it represents one nation with all people. I can't overlook that. That is the big difference between our national flag and that rag that is a reminder of all that was bad-not good about this land.
So, those who suffered and died for the South in the Civil War ain't worth it, huh? I love our national flag as much as you do, but your crazy if you don't think there are large numbers aren't offended by it.
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