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Old 12-27-2010, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Washington, D.C.
276 posts, read 331,521 times
Reputation: 67

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Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York and Ohio are now southern states.............
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:04 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,110,365 times
Reputation: 5741
I have to address this one...

UTHORNS98? You and I hail from the same state and support the same school and, further, have agreed on many issues, many times, in the past. But I have to call you on this one, as it is obvious I am one of the posters you are referring to as "stupid." Not trying to be condecending in the least, but you come across, in many ways, as the "angry black man" in these posts. I know you are more intelligent and articulate than that. And I mean that sincerely and respectfully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UTHORNS96 View Post
A lot of stupidity in this thread. I think the defenders of the flag saying that blacks and whites in the south have an "understanding" about it and talking about how blacks fought for the Confederacy are stupid.
What I think is "stupid" is that, wellll, let me post my earlier observation from post No. 51:

Even between black and white Southerners there is a certain level of understanding about it. In a way that doesn't exist elsewhere....

Now just how is that simple observation, based on experience, stupid?

I will repeat it til hell freezes over. In my own experience and observations, unlike in the non-Southern states, blacks and whites do indeed have a certain tacit understanding about it. It doesn't translate into that there is universal brotherhood on the subject. No, it just means that, unlike in other parts of the country, that Southern blacks are not so quick to regard it as a personal affront. And likewise, whites in the South -- except for the extreme elements amongst us - make a point to use some discretion and sensitivity in displaying it.

Why should that be so surprising? Generations of black and white Southerners have grown up together and absorbed our unique history and how to get along in the best way possible. Just as an aside here, when the Battle Flag canton on the Mississippi state flag come up as to removal? A solid third of blacks voted to keep it. I am just saying...

So far as blacks fighting for the Confederacy? What is so "stupid" about a simple fact of history? As I said in my earlier post (No. 55), I believe the numbers were lower than some advance, but higher some than others want to deny. Here (to repeat) is a link to what seems a very balanced summation of it:

Black Confederates in the Civil War

I really don't know the exact numbers, nor how many were "free" or "slave". I WILL say though, that those who want to dismiss that there were, for certain, blacks who were there by choice, even in the latter stages of the War, do a dis-service to the memory of those men and are in denial themselves. Hell, all one has to do is research the numbers of black Confederates who later joined the United Confederate Veterans (UCV), attended their reunions, and applied for (and were granted) Confederate pensions.

This alone ought to prove that there was no "myth" at all concerning the so-called myth of African-Americans in the service of the CSA. And that they must have been proud of it. While it might be reasonably argued that some blacks had no choice but to serve, under the threat of punishment otherwise? What can't be argued is that there was no power that forced the same to later join the UCV and apply for Confederate pensions.

Quote:
White southerners should not be trying to speak for blacks in this country...PERIOD.
Agreed. Far as that goes, then neither should any single black (and for sure no white liberal) presume to speak for all blacks, don't you agree? As in, say for example, to make a generic/blanket statement, such as "blacks are offended by the Confederate Flag?"

Quote:
I also think the people getting all worked up over the flag and calling it a symbol of racism yet have no problem with the American flag are also silly.

As a black person I used to get all worked up over people flying that flag. But now I don't really care, we have more important things to worry about than whether some idiot wants to fly a flag or not. When you take any flag, you will most likely find a history of oppression and blodshed somewhere behind it. If some idiot wants to fly the flag on their own property, let them knock themselves out.
Quote:
The Confederate flag and the U.S. flag are two sides of the same coin in my opinion. The only difference is that the winners get to write the history, and that's what happened. Like I said, if a few idiots want to fly the flag, I say go ahead and let them. They can live in their racist world all by themselves.
Agreed on the bolded parts, for sure. Which is why my own foundational position is that symbols mean different things to different people, and the same involve a myriad of reasons. History, culture, experience, etc.

Now then, I would like to ask a question. Which is (unless I mis-read your premise, and if so, I apologize) as you regard the American Flag and Confederate Flag as flip sides of the same coin?

Does this mean that those who fly the United States Flag are also living in what you call a "racist world all by themselves"?
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:10 AM
 
1,645 posts, read 3,191,107 times
Reputation: 1381
Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur View Post
What's sad about this subject is the obvious pathetic desire of Confederate-sympathizers in seeking some sort of acceptance by Americans. It is like Nazis desperately hoping that some people actually agree with them. The Rebel flag will never be popular or acceptable by any segment of the American public outside of a narrow group of racist-types. In California, the flag immediately signals that the individual flying it is not part of the mainstream and likely anarchistic and not very bright.
Once again the illogical comparison between states rights supported by the founding fathers and Nazism. I guess Samuel Adams and Thomas Paine were just the Hitler and Goebbels of their era

The Confederate flag doesn't have to be "acceptable" by ANY segment of the non-Southern U.S. population as it represents the history, culture, and freedom of the South. Why is it relevant to the nutjobs in California, who had no impact on the history of the region?

Not mainstream? Anarchistic? Not very bright? You just described the population of San Francisco.
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Old 12-28-2010, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,048,491 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
Once again the illogical comparison between states rights supported by the founding fathers and Nazism. I guess Samuel Adams and Thomas Paine were just the Hitler and Goebbels of their era

The Confederate flag doesn't have to be "acceptable" by ANY segment of the non-Southern U.S. population as it represents the history, culture, and freedom of the South. Why is it relevant to the nutjobs in California, who had no impact on the history of the region?

Not mainstream? Anarchistic? Not very bright? You just described the population of San Francisco.
Besides the fact that you missed his point, you also don't read very much.
By the way, the rag you are defending isn't "acceptable" to most southerners either.

California Military History: California and the Civil War
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Southeast Arizona
3,191 posts, read 4,133,631 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonjj View Post
Besides the fact that you missed his point, you also don't read very much.
By the way, the rag you are defending isn't "acceptable" to most southerners either.

California Military History: California and the Civil War
Who are you to dictate what is "acceptable" to southerners these days? TexasReb lives back there and he feels that there is an understanding about it.

I'm pretty sure you are blowing smoke.
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Old 12-28-2010, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
687 posts, read 1,374,319 times
Reputation: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert kid View Post
Who are you to dictate what is "acceptable" to southerners these days? TexasReb lives back there and he feels that there is an understanding about it.

I'm pretty sure you are blowing smoke.
I live here too, and I respectfully disagree with TexasReb--I don't know many here in Dallas who would view waving the Confederate battle flag as something "acceptable," and I have no idea what this "understanding" is that is mentioned. Then again, I'm not sure what someone who lives in Arizona would know about how things are in Texas either. Suffice it to say that there is not agreement on the issue in Texas or probably any place for that matter. Obviously some people have a problem with it and others don't. So be it.
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Old 12-28-2010, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC NoVA
1,105 posts, read 1,947,332 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandstorm214 View Post
I live here too, and I respectfully disagree with TexasReb--I don't know many here in Dallas who would view waving the Confederate battle flag as something "acceptable," and I have no idea what this "understanding" is that is mentioned. Then again, I'm not sure what someone who lives in Arizona would know about how things are in Texas either. Suffice it to say that there is not agreement on the issue in Texas or probably any place for that matter. Obviously some people have a problem with it and others don't. So be it.
you don't know many you said. who do you know then? transplant accountants from boston or actual people from dallas who have a clue?
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
687 posts, read 1,374,319 times
Reputation: 538
Yes, I don't know anybody who is actually from Dallas because they are all at Civil War re-enactments. It's just me and the accountants from Boston, here.
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Old 12-28-2010, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Portland, Maine
4,180 posts, read 13,048,491 times
Reputation: 1609
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
you don't know many you said. who do you know then? transplant accountants from boston or actual people from dallas who have a clue?


hehehe--actual people---good one. and the opposite would be unactual people?
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Old 12-28-2010, 02:16 PM
 
Location: SW Pennsylvania
821 posts, read 1,253,771 times
Reputation: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Lakes View Post
I have seen rebel flags in Ohio, New York, Pennsylvanian, and California in small town and rural areas. Not very common, but I have seen it on multiple occasions where one may not expect. I think for most who display it up north it represents a rural or "redneck" type lifestyle. Like people who enjoy country music, trucks, off-roading, or hunting. Not necessarily a racist degenerate thing.

For example take this off-road truck event video. It's located in Oho near the Pennsylvania border, a little over an hour away from both Cleveland and Pittsburgh. You will see people with rebel flags on their trucks in the video (ironically at a place called Yankee Lake).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1EbxuIb7aM
LOL..Yeah I know where that is.

Alot of people in western PA say it's more "redneck" the closer you get to the W. Va and Maryland borders, but honestly I've encountered more rednecks in the center of the state and in the northern border near NY, far away from W. Va and MD.
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