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Old 12-20-2010, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,562,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MN55 View Post
I've seen a number in the Eastside of St Paul, Maplewood, North St Paul area. There's a rather large one flying off this one house on Larpenteur Avenue. I remember seeing one down on Hwy 61 down towards Winona a few years back.
I've never seen one in the Cities. I don't know how someone could openly fly that flag on the east side of St. Paul, considering the area's high Black and Asian population.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,166 posts, read 4,193,974 times
Reputation: 2707
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
seems you're the ignorant one here.

noone, even southerners, deny that a lot of people use it as a symbol for hate but that's not what the flag was about. i'm not a skinhead and i have the confederate flag on my dakota's rear window and i have one on the back of my jet ski. i'm for states rights. i'm for arizona. you're liberal; you people hate generalizations on people (like you claim az is doing to hispanics) yet you're making them right now against people with a confederate flag and you people call out ignorance yet your statement is one of the most ignorant i've seen. you're a hypocrite.
In the mid-1800s, the Confederate flag was indeed a symbol of states' rights, but that specifically meant the rights of agrarian states to uphold the institution of slavery (a necessary economic foundation).

Nowadays, the use of the Conferderate Flag has many different meanings. There are some people who acclaim it as a symbol of "white power" and "white pride," though some people in this group would prefer to repatriate blacks (and not re-enslave them).

Other people see the Confederate flag as a symbol--but not always the only symbol--of states' rights. A lot of these people separate the flag's historical implication of slavery, just as proponents of the Spanish flag (bearing images of castles and lions) don't think about the historical implication of the centuries-long struggle against Muslims in Iberia, or just as fans of the fleur-de-lis in New Orleans don't usually associate the symbol with the authoritarian and imperialist monarchic power of Old France. People have reinvented meaning for these images.

There are other symbolic meanings for the Confederate flag. When I was growing up in upper-middle class California, some kids saw it as a symbol of "the underdog," a kind of statement and rebellion against the usual white-collar college-bound path that the overachievers followed. It was vaguely seen as a non-conformist, anti-yuppie symbol--one of many such symbols back then.

I suspect that much use of the flag nowadays outside of Dixie reflects this vague underdog mentality--the flag's symbolism has become very personal and local, and other (selected) symbolic features of the Old South are seen nostalgically, perhaps as a simpler way of life (for some whites, that is) that has succumbed to industrialization, crass capitalism, globalization, diversity, and so on. Many of these people forget (or never knew) about white poverty in the south--the phenomenon of sharecropping, for example, that was only a couple of notches above the indignity of slavery. Come to think of it, many southern whites embrace the Confederate flag without knowing or giving much thought to the fact that generations of their ancestors were viciously exploited by the South's white ruling class.

In some ways, the Confederate flag has experienced the same kind of mass-marketing that the Che Guevara symbol has experienced, though the two symbols communicate very different (but not completely different) values (both are underdog symbols). But still, the Confederate flag--like Che--has very powerful negative connotations in this country, and we shouldn't be surprised that many people react so viscerally to it. The flag has been demonized, and many people who display it know that.

Last edited by Empidonax; 12-20-2010 at 11:52 PM..
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:44 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,955,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriscross309 View Post
Holy Crap!

I wasn't expecting that!
No one expects the Confederados! Their chief weapons are... Oh wait that's some other group

The Can-Can part was interesting as I don't really think of that as Southern. Maybe after a 130 years, and possibly becoming an oddball tourist attraction, they mix things up a bit.
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:51 AM
 
1,080 posts, read 1,983,896 times
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Quote:
I've never seen one in the Cities. I don't know how someone could openly fly that flag on the east side of St. Paul, considering the area's high Black and Asian population.
You'd be surprised. As any old east sider will tell you, the neighborhoods still pretty segrated; sometimes by the block. A guess the flag might just be the way of some white hold-outs to express their anger about "outsiders" moving in and "ruining" their old neighborhood. There's still a lot of the animosity present in the east side and a lot of nostalgia for the "good old days". North St Paul high school also was known as having the largest skinhead population in the country a decade ago or so. This area is one of the few areas in the cities where I've seen outright racial animosity. The old eastside was a really pround place and a lot of oldtimers still harbor a lot of resentment at the changes that have taken place.
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:00 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,955,873 times
Reputation: 6679
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
seems you're the ignorant one here.

noone, even southerners, deny that a lot of people use it as a symbol for hate but that's not what the flag was about. i'm not a skinhead and i have the confederate flag on my dakota's rear window and i have one on the back of my jet ski. i'm for states rights. i'm for arizona. you're liberal; you people hate generalizations on people (like you claim az is doing to hispanics) yet you're making them right now against people with a confederate flag and you people call out ignorance yet your statement is one of the most ignorant i've seen. you're a hypocrite.
Now for something more serious than the previous.

I defended flying the Confederate flag once, but the thing is slavery was a big part of why they seceded and I think they were fairly tough on anyone who wanted to secede from the Confederacy. Plus in the 1960s the Southern Governors started flying the Battle Flag to protest racial integration. So for many blacks, including most Black Conservatives when I've seen their conventions on C-SPAN, its hurtful associations aren't easily forgotten.

Couldn't you or others just fly the "Don't Tread on Me" flag, with the snake, or a flag of some other States-Right rebellion.
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Old 12-21-2010, 04:07 AM
 
1,645 posts, read 3,190,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Now for something more serious than the previous.

I defended flying the Confederate flag once, but the thing is slavery was a big part of why they seceded and I think they were fairly tough on anyone who wanted to secede from the Confederacy. Plus in the 1960s the Southern Governors started flying the Battle Flag to protest racial integration. So for many blacks, including most Black Conservatives when I've seen their conventions on C-SPAN, its hurtful associations aren't easily forgotten.

Couldn't you or others just fly the "Don't Tread on Me" flag, with the snake, or a flag of some other States-Right rebellion.
Thomas, I find your posts very interesting and I don't want to re-debate the whole war all over again, but I find your last line particularly troubling. That is really the problem in the U.S. today. Why should I relinquish my freedom to say something or fly a certain flag because someone else doesn't like it or is "offended". Who cares? It's my flag and my property.
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Old 12-21-2010, 04:11 AM
 
1,645 posts, read 3,190,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
I've seen a couple of those ugly hate symbols in Southern Minnesota, mostly in rural towns like Good Thunder and Lake Crystal. To be fair, I don't think (at least I HOPE NOT) the people flying them are doing it to be racist, just that they embrace a "country" way of life, although some may really be racist. Still, it turns my stomach to see those ugly symbols of oppression. I equate the confederate flag to the Nazi flag. Same thing.
I suppose you have the same reaction to someone flying the British flag then? If not, why? Want to compare the numbers to see how many died under the British Empire as opposed to those under the Confederacy?

And flying the U.S./Union/American flag is out too. It stands for the genocide of Amerindians, the raping of the Philippines, the nuclear holocaust of Japanese cities, etc.
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Old 12-21-2010, 04:23 AM
 
Location: "Daytonnati"
4,245 posts, read 5,982,537 times
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I've read about 'Yanknecks'...Yankee Rednecks....guess they would have the battle flag as a bumper sticker.

I saw a good one the other day, but in Louisville, not the north...the flag plus these words: "My Hertiage/Your Ignorance)
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:27 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,955,873 times
Reputation: 6679
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
Thomas, I find your posts very interesting and I don't want to re-debate the whole war all over again, but I find your last line particularly troubling. That is really the problem in the U.S. today. Why should I relinquish my freedom to say something or fly a certain flag because someone else doesn't like it or is "offended". Who cares? It's my flag and my property.
I did worry about the phrasing as I meant it more as a suggestion than a command and I worried that wasn't coming through right. I just wasn't sure how to make it clearer.

Of course you have a right to do all kinds of things, but I think some things can become counterproductive to one's overall goal or image. Rightly or wrongly most (though not all necessarily) blacks who believe in states' rights and conservative values can't or won't detach it from their own life history or that of their parents. They see the Confederate Battle Flag as the flag that flown by the Klan and for those whose "position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery."

Granted I used to be fairly sympathetic to flying it because there is no real symbol for "Southern culture" or "Southern region" and even if it's far from my ideal the Confederacy was the only time the South itself was a nation. Still eventually I realized this was naive and that it really is hurtful to decent people who I have no problem with. I doubt I'd fly the Union flag of that era either, it's the flag representing massacre for many American Indian tribes, but there's also no reason to. I do wish the South had a 20th/21st century symbol, as the Union does with the 50 star flag, but unfortunately it doesn't.
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Old 12-21-2010, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,562,228 times
Reputation: 3232
Why does the South need a symbol? Does the Upper Midwest have a flag? What about the Northeast? The West doesn't have a symbol. Like it or not, the South is just another region of this nation. You guys aren't special or different.
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