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Old 12-29-2010, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC NoVA
1,105 posts, read 1,948,692 times
Reputation: 775

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshadower View Post
Yeah, especially when most of the nurses (including most of my aunts and uncles), doctors (including my mom), and engineers (including my dad) in California are foreign born. I didn't know they are low paid, welfare leeches off the system.

40% of all US nurses are foreign-born. - Nursing for Nurses
Foreign-born doctors fill gaps in health care system » Knoxville News Sentinel
More U.S. Scientists and Engineers Are Foreign-Born - Population Reference Bureau (http://www.prb.org/Articles/2010/usforeignbornstem.aspx - broken link)
all my doctors are foreign born too. that's nothing unique to california. fact is, an overwhelming and growing number of foreign born people in california are poor hispanics. that's what i meant.

Quote:
The foreign born in California isn't as cut-and-dry as most people assume. The vast majority of low paying jobs AND high paying jobs nowadays are taken up by the foreign born. That mostly is a function of the fact that 27% of Californians are foreign born.
not the "vast majority" of high paying and low paying jobs are taken up by foreign born people. if that was the case, we'd have a serious problem in this country.

Quote:
Yes, it "helps" but it also helped make the US what it is. If you go down that line of logic, we don't "need" anything but food, shelter, and clothing. Like it or not, every single state is an integral part of this country. If things were any different than they are now, then things wouldn't have turned out the way they did, for better and for worse.
you're the one who said we "need" california. but you're right, things would be different without it but it wouldn't be chaos like californians want to believe.

Quote:
On regulations and unions, I agree with you that its stupid. I'm not saying California doesn't need to be fixed because it's obvious that it does. What I'm trying to say is that it's not only one or two factors that determine the way people move; its a host of things that need to be addressed.
i agree, but first and foremost a business friendly environment that attracts business. business creates jobs and then people follow.

Quote:
I'm not going to deny that, but keep in mind that since the 1960s, California's population has DOUBLED from around 19 million to around 37-38 million today while the US population has only increased 1/3 from 200 million to 300 million.
i'm pretty sure every state since then has increased in population, how much isn't the issue, california so largely due to large influxes of poor hispanics and far east asians.

Quote:
Even during the 1990s when the US economy recovered from the late 80's recession, things weren't as strong as they could have been due to the loss of the industrial base in the Midwest. How did it benefit the US as a whole when most of the manufacturing went to China, or an increasing amount of the service sector to India? Where's the net-gain for the United States?
they lost manufacturing thanks mainly to over regulation and unions.

Quote:
Around LA, SF, and NY, some of the most Democrat districts are also some of the wealthiest. This isn't class warfare.
Congressional District Demographic Trends and Patterns

Out of the top 20 congressional districts by income:
7 are Republican
13 are Democrat

Out of the top 10 congressional districts by income
5 are Republican
5 are Democrat
your link froze my screen so it's a no go. but that's not the point. most likely, a lot of these wealthy areas that voted blue are in some of the worse off states. could you list the top 20 wealthy areas locations?

the trend speaks for itself. in the grand scheme of it all, red states are the best to run a business. i don't understand the denial. 651 chief executive officers seem to agree with that statement. bam. right here. you can't argue with a ceo.
Best and Worst States for Business 2010 | Articles | Homepage
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:45 PM
 
Location: west mich
5,740 posts, read 5,869,402 times
Reputation: 2120
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenaudFR View Post
Low-tax states will gain seats, high-tax states will lose them | Washington Examiner (http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2010/11/low-tax-states-will-gain-seats-high-tax-states-will-lose-them-0 - broken link)
Soak the Rich, Lose the Rich - WSJ.com
Americans flee unionized, high tax states
Americans flee the high-tax states, it's just so obvious.All the winners are low-tax states.
You must admit reality guys
The census only shows one thing, POPULATION GAIN/LOSS. It shows nothing else! It doesn't even show migration!! The reasons must come from other sources.
The flight from cold states to warm states has been in progress for years and documented. The aging population has been increasing and relocating. I'm not saying it's the ONLY reason, but the idea that it is due to taxes and unions is simply right-wing propaganda.
You like to quote right-wing blogs? Check these out guys!
GOP fights against stimulus, yet Red States get way more federal money than Blue States. Ironic or Hypocritical? | BuzzFlash.org
TaxProf Blog: Red States Feed at Federal Trough, Blue States Supply the Feed
The wealthy are being soaked are they??
what-the-top-us-companies-pay-in-taxes: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance
The Gap Between Statutory and Real Corporate Tax Rates
GE: 7,000 tax returns, $0 U.S. tax bill - Apr. 16, 2010
There is a lot more but I'm keeping the list short for now.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX/Chicago, IL/Houston, TX/Washington, DC
10,171 posts, read 12,807,544 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
Haha , there not that progressive outside the cities though......they also have alot of issues in the social dept....intill that happens there lower then any Northern state...
And that is a misconception. There is no way on Earth a state with 25 Million people can have 40% of its population being Hispanic & Asians and not be "socially progressive". The Hispanics in Texas don't stand for racism, and the state government knows that. That is why Democrats & Republicans alike in Texas do their absolute best not to offend Hispanic Texans.

Rick Perry & George W. Bush have both been criticized by native Texans for "siding with Mexico" way more often than the Texas state policies. As for the debt the state has, allow me for that. Remember though Budget Deficits are not state debts, they are a budget shortfall for a fiscal year in any given government on its services.

Take this for example on debt comparisons between New York & Texas:
New York State Debt: $122,527,873,429
Texas State Debt: $81,128,512,515

Source New York State: New York state budget - Sunshine Review
Source Texas: http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Texas_state_budget

And Texas State Budget Deficit while at $18 Billion right now for 2 years (It only holds 2 year sessions) is projected to increase to $25 Billion (For two year session), New York States Budget Deficit is expected to increase to $15 Billion (For a one year session).

By per capita basis, New York State is in more actual debt than Texas numerically and by percentage. And it's also got a worse budget deficit per capita than Texas, and annually (Texas is 2 year sessions so 25/2 = 12.5) than Texas.

I love New York State (I like Upstate New York more than Texas for that matter and more than California too) but it is what it is though. And for the record Texas is a state that gives more to the Federal Government in tax dollars than it gets back. So yes, it is very much a donor state.
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC NoVA
1,105 posts, read 1,948,692 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by detwahDJ View Post
The census only shows one thing, POPULATION GAIN/LOSS. It shows nothing else! It doesn't even show migration!! The reasons must come from other sources.
The flight from cold states to warm states has been in progress for years and documented. The aging population has been increasing and relocating. I'm not saying it's the ONLY reason, but the idea that it is due to taxes and unions is simply right-wing propaganda.
You like to quote right-wing blogs? Check these out guys!
GOP fights against stimulus, yet Red States get way more federal money than Blue States. Ironic or Hypocritical? | BuzzFlash.org
TaxProf Blog: Red States Feed at Federal Trough, Blue States Supply the Feed
The wealthy are being soaked are they??
what-the-top-us-companies-pay-in-taxes: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance
The Gap Between Statutory and Real Corporate Tax Rates
GE: 7,000 tax returns, $0 U.S. tax bill - Apr. 16, 2010
There is a lot more but I'm keeping the list short for now.
first off, most people benefiting from your benefits in the south are poor blacks who vote democrat. so you're most likely feeding your own voters.

this (what-the-top-us-companies-pay-in-taxes: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance) article proves that higher taxes are sending business elsewhere to places with lower taxes.

as for GE, they do pay taxes but i do hope they make more money by paying as little as possible because i have thousands invested in them.
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Old 12-29-2010, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX/Chicago, IL/Houston, TX/Washington, DC
10,171 posts, read 12,807,544 times
Reputation: 4047
I edited out the names of all the states that lost jobs in the last 10 years, just so everyone here can chill out and not be bashing each other for supposedly "bashing" other peoples states. And I am not bashing anyones state here either. This is what it is.

But this is the reality. This has BEEN the reality for the past 10 years, it will continue to be the reality this year, and most likely unless something unexpected happens it will remain to be the reality for years to come. Are you ready to let reality set in?

This is reality people, especially when it comes to jobs:
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Tower of Heaven
4,023 posts, read 6,438,974 times
Reputation: 1440
Quote:
Originally Posted by DANNYY View Post
I edited out the names of all the states that lost jobs in the last 10 years, just so everyone here can chill out and not be bashing each other for supposedly "bashing" other peoples states. And I am not bashing anyones state here either. This is what it is.

But this is the reality. This has BEEN the reality for the past 10 years, it will continue to be the reality this year, and most likely unless something unexpected happens it will remain to be the reality for years to come. Are you ready to let reality set in?

This is reality people, especially when it comes to jobs:
Reality in picture

And this is another reality
Quote:
Irvine consultant Joe Vranich has made a name for himself in the past couple of years documenting companies that are moving jobs out of California, expanding outside the Golden State because of its business regulations/ taxes or packing up and leaving completely.
So the California Chapter of Americans for Prosperity asked Vranich to come up with a David Letterman-type top 10 list of reasons businesses are leaving California:
Vranich cites several studies and surveys in his list:
10. Unfair taxes (Tax Foundation ranks California as 48th for tax fairness.)
9. Most expensive business locations (Rose Institute for State and Local Government has many California cities as the most expensive U.S. places in which to do business.)
8. Worst performing labor (Pacific Research Institute rates California’s labor performance over a five-year period) as lowest in the nation.)
7. Dreadful legal treatment (Civil Justice Association of California ranks California as 44th in legal fairness to business.)
6. Worst regulatory burden (Consultant Bain & Co., in a 2004 report for the California Business Roundtable (http://www.cbrt.org/other_documents/ccp_exec_summary.pdf - broken link), said California is far worse than any other state on its “regulatory hassle index,” based on cost, uncertainty and complexity of government regulations.)
5. Harsh treatment motivates exits (Bain & Co. also said more than half of California’s business leaders said their companies had a policy to restrict job growth in this state.)
4. Unfriendliness (The Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council ranks California 48th — Vranich says 49th based on the council’s 2009 report — in business friendliness.)
3. High misery index (Associated Press publishes a monthly economic stress index that ranked California 3rd highest in December.)
2. Uncontrollable spending (Several pollsters say people are angrier about California government than at any other time in the polls’ history.)
1. Worst state to do business (Chief Executive magazine surveyed company executives to conclude that California is the worst place in which to do business.)

Top 10 list why firms leave California - Jan Norman on Small Business : The Orange County Register

And it's not just California....
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Northridge, Los Angeles, CA
2,685 posts, read 6,361,844 times
Reputation: 2356
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
all my doctors are foreign born too. that's nothing unique to california. fact is, an overwhelming and growing number of foreign born people in california are poor hispanics. that's what i meant.
I never SAID it was unique to California. You are ASSUMING that I'm trying to say that. What I said was that the foreign born in California aren't just poor, cheap labor Hispanics, like what you're assuming in the post before.

Do you have proof for the bolded statement? Every single piece of evidence points to the contrary because of the really bad economy:

Number of illegal immigrants in U.S. drops, report says
A Shifting Tide: Recent Trends in the Illegal Immigrant Population | Center for Immigration Studies
Marked Decrease in Illegal Immigration (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/immigration/4505-flow-of-illegal-immigrants-slowing - broken link)
Double digit decrease on illegal immigration - Los Angeles Border and Immigration | Examiner.com



Quote:
not the "vast majority" of high paying and low paying jobs are taken up by foreign born people. if that was the case, we'd have a serious problem in this country.
I didn't mention anything about the US as a whole, I was just talking about California.

Fact: An increasing number of jobs in Silicon Valley are held by people with H1b visas, mostly from India (source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...YFy10w&cad=rja)
Fact: Most of the agriculture jobs in California are held by Hispanics, who may be legal or illegal

Those are just two industries, but both lie at the the extreme ends of the scale.

Most of my classmates in Berkeley were either immigrants or children of immigrants, like myself. The same goes for every single university in California, and an increasing amount in other colleges around the country.


Quote:
you're the one who said we "need" california. but you're right, things would be different without it but it wouldn't be chaos like californians want to believe.
Yeah, the United States needs California like the United States need every other state. I never said that California was the only state that the US needed; all I said was that the US needs California to survive. Where's the lie in that?

I never said it would be chaos if California didn't exist, but things would be a bit more difficult for the US as a whole. Don't assume that you know what I'm thinking based off my location.


Quote:
i'm pretty sure every state since then has increased in population, how much isn't the issue, california so largely due to large influxes of poor hispanics and far east asians.
No, most states haven't grown by 19 million people in 40-50 years. That's an empirical fact:
Resident Population Data - 2010 Census

Keep in mind, California grew by a factor that is currently LARGER than the population of New York State TODAY, especially with institutions that weren't meant to even govern 1/10 the population, never mind the population we have today.

You're the one who brought up "California's golden age ended in the 1960s" Well I gave you an explanation of why. If you don't want to accept it, that's fine. Show me a counter example that works.


Quote:
they lost manufacturing thanks mainly to over regulation and unions.
And again, you missed my point. How has that benefited the US as a whole? How has the loss of manufacturing and services made the US a stronger country? How does having an increasing trade deficit with China, India, and Japan improve the quality of our lives?

The issues are much larger than the regions and states. It's a national problem we have.

Quote:
your link froze my screen so it's a no go. but that's not the point. most likely, a lot of these wealthy areas that voted blue are in some of the worse off states. could you list the top 20 wealthy areas locations?
You're missing the point here. You said:
Quote:
and for years, the biggest net taxpayers into the federal system have been majority republicans. so who is biting the hand that feeds them? liberals?
To which I replied: not according to the data. So tell me, where's your proof that the biggest net taxpayers are Republicans, when some of the wealthy districts are controlled by the Democrats?

But to appease your curiosity, here you go:
1) Virginia's 11th district (D)
2) New Jersey's 11th district (R)
3) Virginia's 10th district (R)
4) California's 14th district (D)
5) New Jersey's 7th district (R)
6) New York's 3rd district (R)
7) Maryland's 8th district (D)
8) New York's 2nd district (D)
9) New Jersey's 5th district (R)
10) Virginia's 8th district (D)
11) California's 15th district (D)
12) California's 12th district (D)
13) New York's 4th district (D)
14) New Jersey's 12th district (D)
15) Colorado's 6th district (R)
16) California's 42nd district (R)
17) New York's 18th district (D)
18) Maryland's 5th district (D)
19) California's 48th district (R)
20) Washington's 8th district (R)

Quote:
the trend speaks for itself. in the grand scheme of it all, red states are the best to run a business. i don't understand the denial. 651 chief executive officers seem to agree with that statement. bam. right here. you can't argue with a ceo.
Best and Worst States for Business 2010 | Articles | Homepage
First of all, no one is in denial here about anything. The South and West have grown phenomenally. That should be applauded.

Second of all, I guess you and RenaudFR missed the thread title (funny how Renaud missed it since he made the thread) but this was specifically talking about TAXES. Again, taxes in California have remained the same for the past 30 years, but yet CA went from 23 million to 37 million from 1980 to today. There is more at work than taxes.

Third of all, I must ask why is a disproportionate amount of GDP coming from "the worst states" if its so bad to do business in? The Northeast, Midwest, and California COMBINED have a less population than the South and rest of the West but make up more than 60% of America's GDP? Tell me when the free market and capitalism are supposed to reign, because I'm pretty sick of sitting in traffic when I go to work.

The truth about California Brett Arends' ROI - MarketWatch
Quote:
California’s a basket case? The state has one of the highest living standards in the country, yet over the past 10 years the economy has still grown much faster, per person, than the national average. According to the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis, it’s up 15% — compared to 8.9% for the U.S. overall. It’s grown faster than low tax neighbors like Arizona, Utah or New Mexico. It’s grown three times faster than Texas.
That's a fact: U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) - bea.gov Home Page

NOTE: This isn't talking about total GDP, but rather per capita income.

Quote:
Back in the Silicon Valley glory days, in the late 1990s, California attracted an incredible 42 cents of every venture capital dollar invested in America. Ah, those were the days — when the private sector was still willing to back California with its own money. As any conservative will tell you, that’s the real voting in the economy.
How far has California fallen from those giddy days?
According to the latest data from PricewaterhouseCoopers and the National Venture Capital Association, in 2010 California just got a miserable, er, 50 cents of every venture capital dollar invested in America.
Again, fact: California receives more NOW in Venture Capital than it did before. If things were so hostile, then why are we still getting any investment?



Quote:

According to them, as of 2008 (the most recent year analyzed) state and local taxes in the average state came to about 9.7% of the annual state economy.
What was it in crazy, liberal, communistical, socialistical, un-American, soviet-style California?
Er, 10.5%.
Fact: Taxes in California don't deviate too far from the national average.

No one is saying that there isn't a problem with states like California, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, etc.

The problem here is distorting of events for some sort of agenda.

I don't see how you could take offense to anything I said: why shouldn't Republicans and Democrats work more closely together? Why shouldn't we be mature and adult about the solutions for the future of the US?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RenaudFR View Post
Reality in picture

And this is another reality



Top 10 list why firms leave California - Jan Norman on Small Business : The Orange County Register

And it's not just California....
You're fond of posting op-ed pieces. I can do the same exact thing:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...83,print.story
Quote:
Still, over the last decade, California has seen strong growth. From 1999 to 2009, the state's GDP rose by 27.2%. That's better growth than in the U.S. as a whole, which saw GDP growth of 20.2%, or in Texas, where GDP grew by 25.9%.

By another important measure of a state's competitiveness and economic future — venture capital investment — California continues to tower above all other states.

In 2000, California firms captured 42% of the nation's venture capital funding. In the second quarter of this year, California's share rose to more than 50% — $3.06 billion of $5.9 billion was invested here. Massachusetts ranked a distant second behind California with $698 million. Texas attracted just $212 million. These numbers show that venture capitalists believe California is still the best place in the nation to find innovative entrepreneurs and productive workers.

California no doubt faces serious challenges. But our obstacles are not insurmountable.

Fiscally, we have to get smarter, think longer and stop hoping for a miracle. Californians have to assume more responsibility for deciding what they want government to do and how much they're willing to pay for public services. We have to design a saner system for financing public schools.

We will meet these challenges. California has the most diversified economy in the country. It has the most diverse population, and the youngest. These are huge advantages. But we also possess the unmatched imagination and entrepreneurship of our people and their abiding frontier spirit. A few insults aren't going to get us down.
See how far that gets us?

The reality is that California needs to be fixed from the ground up. It's not just a matter of "having lower taxes" or "less regulations" that's going to get us there. There needs to be a holistic, realistic approach to this. The fact of the matter is that Americans love to vote for spending platforms while voting for tax cuts. Until that gets fixed (IE: stop voting for things you don't want to pay for), the problem will only get worse. Stop making it seem like nothing can ever be fixed, like all of us are locked into a situation that we will never get out of. I don't see how that helps.

How is that even in dispute here, I don't know. Such is the wonder of City Data.

Last edited by Lifeshadower; 12-29-2010 at 05:12 PM..
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Old 12-29-2010, 04:51 PM
 
4,811 posts, read 8,817,192 times
Reputation: 2764
This thread sucks.

The OP clearly has an agenda to bash liberal states like California. he/she does it all the time. It's getting old.
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Old 12-29-2010, 06:48 PM
 
Location: west mich
5,740 posts, read 5,869,402 times
Reputation: 2120
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticGermanicPride View Post
as for GE, they do pay taxes but i do hope they make more money by paying as little as possible because i have thousands invested in them.
So you're doing well investing in a corporation paying zero taxes to the U.S. Well done! But wait, corporations are paying too much in taxes right? So 0% is too much - hooray for the investor class.
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Old 12-29-2010, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Mid south
181 posts, read 288,788 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by RenaudFR View Post
Certainly a good economic lesson.If these states don't want to lose more might they should learn (NY,CA, NJ, MA, did you hear me ?)

RealClearPolitics - Video - Census Shows Americans Fleeing High-Tax States
Nope, I didn't hear you or the video - there's no cc and I cannot hear. I sold our house last year in Rockland Co. NY (30 mins. north of NYC) and moved to NC. It was either that or probably lose our house to foreclosure. We weren't close to being there but I didn't have a job (laid of 2/12/09) and St. Lawrence of Ramapo was helping to kill us with taxes on stupid things - grandfather clocks costing a couple hundred grand for each village in Ramapo that chimed his name (seriously), building a AAA baseball stadium even though people voted against it, helping one particular group of people acquire a lot of land for religious purposes, etc. I was told by a trustee our village tax was going up as well. We got out in the nick of time. Here, there aren't any jobs and I can't afford unhealthy insurance here but I won't lose my house because I don't have one!

I hated NY for many reasons - we were flooded by H1B and sponsorships from overseas so we couldn't compete with them. We paid tolls everywhere. Guiliani was an idiot. The legislature was noted as being made of of the biggest idiot legislatures in the U.S. I loathed Wall Street and what it represented - and interviewed there and learned more about the unscrupulous behavior of the banks ... at the interview! The list is endless. I'm glad I leftl

About six years ago, I removed a bumper sticker from my car that said, "Take back the house democrats," when I no longer could tell the difference between a democrat or republican. They're both of one hedonistic ilk, so it's meaningless who represents which district. They're all bada*** - including the once pristine Kucinich.
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