U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 02-20-2011, 11:42 AM
 
6,418 posts, read 10,859,723 times
Reputation: 6687

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by afonega1 View Post
I agree that stolen is a bit to harsh.Elvis as many performers of the day mad it possible for many black musicians and writers to be hired after he did so himself.So I believe as BB King,and Liittle Richard said he was the vessel that put black music in the forefront when before it was just not heard in the mainstream.He did use it and but he did give credit by the use of people who created the music by hiring them.

Peter Guralnick, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley, p.426.
This is a great point. There are certainly cases where white artists took black created works, and were more successful than the black artists themselves (at least at the time). A great example of this is Pat Boone covering Little Richard's "Tutti Frutti." There are also times where whites took black music and profited from it without crediting the black musicians at all.

However, one must consider the era that most of this was happening...the 50s and 60s. At that time, black music just wasn't marketable to a majority of the white audience. There were too many racial barriers, stereotypes, and taboos attached.

When white music lovers discovered the roots of the music they were listening to, it helped break down a lot of those barriers, and black music suddenly became more marketable to all of popular music. Blues, jazz, and R&B then became more acceptable to listen to, and were no longer relegated to the "black section" of the record store.

Of course Elvis came to success off of imitating and downright copying black music, but his immense popularity, and others like him, helped whites become more accepting to black music as a whole.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-20-2011, 01:15 PM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
7,909 posts, read 12,164,912 times
Reputation: 5697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Observation View Post
Your wrong, so please explain.
Ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Observation View Post
The first time I wen't to a soul food resturant I was expecting something exotic and different based upon what the media had told me about it.
I remember being very disappointing when I read the menu an realized I had not only eaten every single piece of food they offered, but it was baisically what I recognized as regular American food and I even knew how to cook almost everything they offered.
The reason why your experience was less than spectacular was due solely to that first sentence. When it comes to Southern food the worst place to first experience it is in a restaurant.

It's a little known fact outside of the South, but the only Southern dishes that can even work in a restaurant setting are fried chicken and barbecue and even then it's usually nothing spectacular. The reason being is that the corner stone of Southern cooking is allowing time for the flavors and spices to develop.

That's something that can take quiet a long time to achieve (a whole day usually), and restaurants don't have time for that. So those Southern/Soul Food restaurants take shortcuts in preparation that would get them slapped by any Southern grandmother if tried at home. This extends beyond complicated dishes too. For instance, my mother has a yeast roll recipe handed down through the generations that takes a bare minimum of 6 hours to prepare. Would you wait six hours just for a roll in a restaurant?

The best to experience and understand Southern food is in someones home. Particularly on a Sunday if a traditional dinner is being made. Thanksgiving is also a good time as all the stops

Quote:
Originally Posted by Observation View Post
Soul Food is not an African food, it's an American food. If anyone deserves credit for creating it, its the Native Americans who were cooking and eating soul food for almost a thousand
years before blacks or whites even came here.

The only food and culture unfortunately that is uniquely Southern and African at the same time is the food and culture of the Gullah people from the coastal areas of the Carolinas.

I say unfortunately because when Africans were brought here as slaves they were stripped of everything, including there cuisine, and it was a f***in shame. who knows how incredibly diverse and rich African American culture would be today if Africans had at least been allowed to keep there names, countries of origin, and unique culture, and staked out there own communities of people from there country of origin as opposed to all being clumped together as Black.

Soul Food was not created by or even mostly consumed by African Americans, it was merely named by African Americans who moved to the North and the style of cooking and food was vastly different from what Whites in the north ate.
No.

While it is true that Africans that were brought here as slaves had their culture stripped from them, they didn't lose everything and that one thing they didn't lose is the lynch pin of Southern cooking.

The best way to think about the evolution of Southern food is to think of the story of stone soup. Everyone brought something to the proverbial table. The British, Irish and Scots brought the concept of having the protein separated form the other components of the meal. Native Americans brought native plants such as potatoes, onions, squash, tomatos, and corn as well as many other plants unknown in Europe or Africa. Black people brought the final key element: spices and cooking time plus the fusion of European and Native American dishes.

You see Southern food, like soup, can not shine if it is not made properly. One could throw a bunch of stuff in a pot, but if it's not cooked long enough nor seasoned well them might as well throw it out. Also two of the biggest featured plants in Southern food, okra and black eyed peas, are native to Africa and were retained as staple foods.

The most significant contribution of all are the cooking methods. It should not special revelation that Black people when they were slaves were responsible for the cooking duties. It was in those dark and humiliating days that the distinct Southern method of cooking (based on how food was prepared in a communal way in Africa) was developed. I filtered out of those kitchens and into Southern homes.

Since slaves were largely forbidden from retaining their customs, they were forced to make due with what they had. Combining native delicacies with European ones and adding their own spin to it is what made the cuisine what it is today.

Of course, all of this would be easier to conceptualize with a visual reference of a traditional Southern meal:



If dissected, the origins of the food become clear:

-Fried chicken - derived from Scottish cooking (they really like fried stuff) with spices derived from African origin

-Stewed cabbage and collards - Anglo-Saxon origin, prepared with African style spices

-Macaroni and cheese - British origin

-Okra succotash - originated as an Native American stew of corn, beans and tomatos. Okra and spices derived from African origins

So to say Black people had no influence or there are no African elements is preposterous. It is that contribution that brought it all together as one cuisine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Crown Town
2,742 posts, read 5,993,505 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by brother's keeper View Post
An HBCU is an HBCU regardless of what type of programs the university offer....just cause a few didn't meet your criteria doesn't make them any less Historically Black Collegs(or)Universities...HBCU's are black culture period..Region doesn't define black culture..Read my last statement again..It doesn't matter where it originates cause it was created by blackfolk and still practiced by blackfolk all over the country which makes it African American food not just Southern.
Uhhh? You sound crazy. Culture and Region absolutley go hand and hand. As I said before, and as I know you know, if you ask any Soul Food place in america where the cusine they serve orginated, they'll tell you the South. That most certainly makes it part of Southern culture. Just like fish frys, saying hi to people on the street you don't know, and drinking sweet tea. Those are southern things. And for the last time, HBCU's are very much associated with the South. Ok, add in those other schools you listed and there's what, eight HBCU's outside the South???? LMAO. Just because you find a cajun resturant in New York, doesn't mean cajun food is a part of a culture shared by Louisiana and New York. As I keep reading your comments, I see your probblem. You have a very narrow definition of what "Southern Culture" means. To you, its simply confederate flags and rednecks. Its much, much more than that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,563,690 times
Reputation: 3232
waronxmas, great post. It was really informative on how southern food formed, and I guess I was somewhat wrong in my original post.

Carolina Blue -- I agree. You can find sweet tea in Minnesota, but that doesn't make it a Minnesotan drink. It originated in the south, like "soul food/southern cooking." You're also right that there's more to southern culture than rednecks and confederate flags, just like there's more to upper midwestern culture then what you see on the movie "Fargo."

I disagree with you about HBCUs, though. They aren't exclusively southern. Several are in the northeast, and a few are in Southern Ohio (not exactly the north, but not really the true south, either). I believe Wilberforce is one of the oldest HBCUs. How many of them are in the south? There really aren't all that many HBCUs in the first place.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Crown Town
2,742 posts, read 5,993,505 times
Reputation: 1667
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
waronxmas, great post. It was really informative on how southern food formed, and I guess I was somewhat wrong in my original post.

Carolina Blue -- I agree. You can find sweet tea in Minnesota, but that doesn't make it a Minnesotan drink. It originated in the south, like "soul food/southern cooking." You're also right that there's more to southern culture than rednecks and confederate flags, just like there's more to upper midwestern culture then what you see on the movie "Fargo."

I disagree with you about HBCUs, though. They aren't exclusively southern. Several are in the northeast, and a few are in Southern Ohio (not exactly the north, but not really the true south, either). I believe Wilberforce is one of the oldest HBCUs. How many of them are in the south? There really aren't all that many HBCUs in the first place.
There are more than 100 HBCU's in the country. Only 8 are outside the South (using brother's keeper's definition of the South), and none of those are what would be considered of notable size compared to the larger more well known ones in the South. With all due respect, I stand firmly by my comment that HBCU's in the black community are overwhelmingly associated with the South and Southern culture.

List of HBCU's: List of historically black colleges and universities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by Carolina Blue; 02-20-2011 at 05:10 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2011, 05:17 PM
 
639 posts, read 1,117,815 times
Reputation: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Ok



The reason why your experience was less than spectacular was due solely to that first sentence. When it comes to Southern food the worst place to first experience it is in a restaurant.

It's a little known fact outside of the South, but the only Southern dishes that can even work in a restaurant setting are fried chicken and barbecue and even then it's usually nothing spectacular. The reason being is that the corner stone of Southern cooking is allowing time for the flavors and spices to develop.

That's something that can take quiet a long time to achieve (a whole day usually), and restaurants don't have time for that. So those Southern/Soul Food restaurants take shortcuts in preparation that would get them slapped by any Southern grandmother if tried at home. This extends beyond complicated dishes too. For instance, my mother has a yeast roll recipe handed down through the generations that takes a bare minimum of 6 hours to prepare. Would you wait six hours just for a roll in a restaurant?

The best to experience and understand Southern food is in someones home. Particularly on a Sunday if a traditional dinner is being made. Thanksgiving is also a good time as all the stops



No.

While it is true that Africans that were brought here as slaves had their culture stripped from them, they didn't lose everything and that one thing they didn't lose is the lynch pin of Southern cooking.

The best way to think about the evolution of Southern food is to think of the story of stone soup. Everyone brought something to the proverbial table. The British, Irish and Scots brought the concept of having the protein separated form the other components of the meal. Native Americans brought native plants such as potatoes, onions, squash, tomatos, and corn as well as many other plants unknown in Europe or Africa. Black people brought the final key element: spices and cooking time plus the fusion of European and Native American dishes.

You see Southern food, like soup, can not shine if it is not made properly. One could throw a bunch of stuff in a pot, but if it's not cooked long enough nor seasoned well them might as well throw it out. Also two of the biggest featured plants in Southern food, okra and black eyed peas, are native to Africa and were retained as staple foods.

The most significant contribution of all are the cooking methods. It should not special revelation that Black people when they were slaves were responsible for the cooking duties. It was in those dark and humiliating days that the distinct Southern method of cooking (based on how food was prepared in a communal way in Africa) was developed. I filtered out of those kitchens and into Southern homes.

Since slaves were largely forbidden from retaining their customs, they were forced to make due with what they had. Combining native delicacies with European ones and adding their own spin to it is what made the cuisine what it is today.

Of course, all of this would be easier to conceptualize with a visual reference of a traditional Southern meal:



If dissected, the origins of the food become clear:

-Fried chicken - derived from Scottish cooking (they really like fried stuff) with spices derived from African origin

-Stewed cabbage and collards - Anglo-Saxon origin, prepared with African style spices

-Macaroni and cheese - British origin

-Okra succotash - originated as an Native American stew of corn, beans and tomatos. Okra and spices derived from African origins

So to say Black people had no influence or there are no African elements is preposterous. It is that contribution that brought it all together as one cuisine.
Great post, you pretty much proved my point.
I was arguing that soul food isn't in itself purely an African style of food like most ppl would like to lead you to beleive.

Fried chicken = Scottish & African
Cabbage an Collards = Anglo Saxon & African
Mac N Cheese = British
Okra = Native American & African/

Was I missing something when I said soul food and southern food in general isn't a black only thing? Especially in the south where 90% of whites are raised on it, and many have been eating that style of cooking even before they came to the US.

Without Whites fried chicken, Collards, and Macaroni & Cheese wouldn't even be part any soul food menu anywhere in the US, and probably would not be consumed by Blacks in great numbers.

Without Native Americans the same would be true for Okra.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2011, 06:53 AM
 
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
7,909 posts, read 12,164,912 times
Reputation: 5697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Observation View Post
Great post, you pretty much proved my point.
I was arguing that soul food isn't in itself purely an African style of food like most ppl would like to lead you to beleive.
No one, especially myself, ever argued that it was purely an African style of food.

Southern food is clearly a fusion of different cultures, but it was African-Americans that brought it all together as a distinct cuisine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2011, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Atlanta ,GA
9,086 posts, read 13,285,802 times
Reputation: 2929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Observation View Post
Great post, you pretty much proved my point.
I was arguing that soul food isn't in itself purely an African style of food like most ppl would like to lead you to beleive.

Fried chicken = Scottish & African
Cabbage an Collards = Anglo Saxon & African
Mac N Cheese = British
Okra = Native American & African/

Was I missing something when I said soul food and southern food in general isn't a black only thing? Especially in the south where 90% of whites are raised on it, and many have been eating that style of cooking even before they came to the US.

Without Whites fried chicken, Collards, and Macaroni & Cheese wouldn't even be part any soul food menu anywhere in the US, and probably would not be consumed by Blacks in great numbers.

Without Native Americans the same would be true for Okra.
Your comparison is like the same when Pat Boone did his version of Tutti Frutti after Little Richard:Stale,bland and not worth having.Truth is the way food is seasoning makes ALL the difference in the world
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2011, 09:02 AM
 
314 posts, read 642,342 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Well, your "facts" are wrong. Or at least a lot of them are...



If being of primarily Scots-Irish decent, conservative, proud of my Texas/Southern heritage makes me (in your words) a "redneck". Then I'll go you one better. It is not only red, but burnt orange.

What does the "Civil War" have to do with it? The only people, honestly, I see still fighting it are those such as yourself you can't understand there is a huge difference between still fighting a past war, and being proud of one's history. It seems the latter is intolerable to some northeners. And on a related tangent, the only ones I ever see bringing up the "Confederate Flag" issue are northerners. But that is another topic...



I am no super-huge Elvis fan, as it is. Regardless, there is no question that the rock and roll he made iconic has direct roots to the blues of the Mississippi Delta (and spread into Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, etc). And he said so. It was combined with a certain "hillbilly" aspect as well...which is almost exclusively of white South origins.

That combo (pun intended) was the original rock and roll. And no accident (I think you might agree), it first became popular and famous in the South.



Ahhh, balony. Or should I say "hogs head cheese"?

What is known as ol' fashioned Southern style cooking (or "soul food" in the North) is, again, a fusion of African-American and "poor white" styles.

You almost seem bent on making this a racial thing...when it clearly isn't. If there is ANYTHING (and there is lots) to bind white and black Southerners, it is food. I mean real, comfort, food.

Neither "stole" anything from the other. It was an harmonious blend...that actually wasn't so much a blend as just a product of the times, climate, land, resources, that created the best crusine ever cooked!
-My facts are actually quite accurate they just contrast with your revisionary lies.


-Nah bigotry, romanticizing and glorifying Confederacy history(e.g. Confederate flags on pickup trucks,t-shirts,etc) and being just a dumb white country bumpkin in general makes you a redneck.


-You were the one that said...Yankee whites would reject Southern food cause they despise Southern rednecks such as yourself obviously referencing old tensions from the civil war.

-The Elvis reference was more of an comparison between how similar Elvis( a white Southerner) spread black music to other regions outside the South similar to the way white Southerners introduced whites from other regions to black/soul food.

-Ofcourse it's a racial thing...Soul food is associated with African Americans and not white Southerners for good reason.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2011, 09:10 AM
 
314 posts, read 642,342 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolina Blue View Post
Uhhh? You sound crazy. Culture and Region absolutley go hand and hand. As I said before, and as I know you know, if you ask any Soul Food place in america where the cusine they serve orginated, they'll tell you the South. That most certainly makes it part of Southern culture. Just like fish frys, saying hi to people on the street you don't know, and drinking sweet tea. Those are southern things. And for the last time, HBCU's are very much associated with the South. Ok, add in those other schools you listed and there's what, eight HBCU's outside the South???? LMAO. Just because you find a cajun resturant in New York, doesn't mean cajun food is a part of a culture shared by Louisiana and New York. As I keep reading your comments, I see your probblem. You have a very narrow definition of what "Southern Culture" means. To you, its simply confederate flags and rednecks. Its much, much more than that.
What was so crazy about the statement? Excluding HBCUs being exclusively Southern or not( I still stand by my point)....Blacks culture is found wherever we are concentrated all over the country....One region isn't the standard for black culture no more than a region can define whites, Asians, Hispanics or any other race's culture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S.
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top