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Old 02-06-2011, 10:21 AM
 
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Houston, Dallas/Ft Worth, San Antonio and Austin dominates the sun belt because it is the buckle
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,509 posts, read 28,167,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afonega1 View Post
I know people think of Atlanta as a de facto capitol of the Southeast,but Atlanta has been growing nonstop since its inception.Unlike much of the rest of the Southeast it was not a hotbed of agriculture with boundless plantations.It was the last and final blow to the ending of th civil war.(Battle of Atlanta Campaign)It was much like Northeastern cities in its growth patterns.In the last 20 it became more debt driven just like other places.
fixed it for you
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
13,097 posts, read 13,485,805 times
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Originally Posted by sliverbox View Post

Lastly- weather. This is an aspect that can't be taken lightly. If you're living in some overpriced Northern metro and are looking to relocate, then given the choice why would you choose to relocate to yet another cold and miserable northern city when you could move to a warmer Southern city that has greater economic opportunities? I think the gut reaction most people have is that:

I see this over and over and over again: Some family from Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, and so forth. Where do they move? They move someplace warm and even if its hot as hell- they loooove that idea. Trust me- living out here in California it seems like they might as well call California Cali-Jersey because I swear like 50% of the people I know here are from the Northeast. Either that or Ohio. Again- people are highly motivated by weather because the impact weather has on your daily quality of life can't be underestimated.
So then why, when our nation was first growing, did so many people settle in the North? Why was the North the population capital for most of this nation's lifespan? Have winters gotten worse? No. If anything, they have gotten milder. It is NOT winter. 30 years ago, when industry in the North began to collapse and be outsourced, that is basically when the move south began. It wasn't the weather, it was the economy. That trend has continued, although a lot of northern cities that were steadily losing jobs and population have began to make a serious turn in the other direction as those cities were forced to rethink and diversify their economies. Minneapolis, Columbus, Indy, Milwaukee, Des Moines, Chicago, etc are all seeing steady and strong growth now, yet all of those cities have cold and snowy winters. That doesn't really fit your theory at all. The North, in many areas, now has lower to much lower unemployment than most of the South and West. And if people think that cost of living is going to stay low in the South when they have explosive growth is naive. Someone is going to have to pay to improve infrastructure (something the South is lacking in comparison to the established North), schools, hospitals, etc.
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
13,097 posts, read 13,485,805 times
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Originally Posted by Tourian View Post
I can't believe you are actually comparing an Atlanta winter to a winter up north. Even after the snow storms we've had this year in this country you still believe that?

I do not live in Atlanta, but they get about the same level of snow we do and I'll say this: I don't own a winter car. Salt does not eat up my vehicles. I have never put on chains, bought a set of snow tires and one of my vehicles rides on summer tires all year round, our other cars stay on all-seasons. The soccer mom types and non-outdoorsy types typically buy 2WD SUVs and trucks. Subarus are not popular here at all. A 4WD crossover carries no extra value over the same model in 2WD form and might actually be a turn off to some buyers because most feel it would be extra maintenance and something they won't need. I've never seen a significant amount of snow stay on the ground here for more then 3-4 days in my life and I am in my mid 30's and even then just once. I think I can count the number of days that it has actually been below zero ALL DAY here (this year) on one hand.

Nobody living up north can say the same thing. We have long hot muggy summers here, yes - but we go inside and turn on the A/c - we get in our cars and turn on the A/C and life goes on. That is a minor inconvenience compared to what I am seeing on the news every morning with you guys and your shovels, snow blowers and snow plows crashing into parked cars and people slipping and busting on the sidewalk.
I live in Ohio and have never owned snow tires or chains. Or a 4WD. The last time it was below zero all day was 17 years ago during one of the greatest arctic outbreaks in the US of the 20th Century. That's what it took to do that.

And seriously, if you have to stay inside your house or car to avoid the heat, doesn't that defeat the purpose of people moving south to escape the cold? It's not like people are outside in 100 degree heat with 80% humidity enjoying themselves. No, they're holed up in the A/C.
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:53 PM
 
9,948 posts, read 6,885,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
So then why, when our nation was first growing, did so many people settle in the North? Why was the North the population capital for most of this nation's lifespan? Have winters gotten worse? No. If anything, they have gotten milder. It is NOT winter. 30 years ago, when industry in the North began to collapse and be outsourced, that is basically when the move south began. It wasn't the weather, it was the economy. That trend has continued, although a lot of northern cities that were steadily losing jobs and population have began to make a serious turn in the other direction as those cities were forced to rethink and diversify their economies. Minneapolis, Columbus, Indy, Milwaukee, Des Moines, Chicago, etc are all seeing steady and strong growth now, yet all of those cities have cold and snowy winters. That doesn't really fit your theory at all. The North, in many areas, now has lower to much lower unemployment than most of the South and West. And if people think that cost of living is going to stay low in the South when they have explosive growth is naive. Someone is going to have to pay to improve infrastructure (something the South is lacking in comparison to the established North), schools, hospitals, etc.
All excellent points. Ciities and regions grew as a function of water and trade. The Northeast grew because that was the point of entry from Europe and the climate was similar to Europes. Trade was essentially with Europe and the shortest shipping distance between Europe and the new land was in the North East. When new European immigrants came over they landed in the Northeast and settled in the area.

Other cities formed around rivers which was a conduit for trade, as well as a source of hydro power, irregation of farm land, fresh water and the like. The SouthEast is really not in a desirable position for Global trade. Texas and the Southwest, including Southern Cal, are in the best position for trade with Mexico, Central and South America. The Pacific Northwest is in the Best position for trade with Asia, the Northeast for trade with Europe and Northern Midwestern states for trade with Canda (Americas first or second largest trading partner). The Southeast also does not have any major rivers for trade or many large bodies of fresh water. Its boom was really related to retirees and cheap labor. In the future I just do not seeing the Southeast as having the same draw as in the past. Water will become an increasing problem in the Southest and especially the Southwest.

As energy prices rise we wil gradually revert back to a focus on those traditional factors that lead to the forming of cities and regions.
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Old 02-06-2011, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,562 posts, read 7,673,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
So then why, when our nation was first growing, did so many people settle in the North? Why was the North the population capital for most of this nation's lifespan? Have winters gotten worse? No. If anything, they have gotten milder. It is NOT winter. 30 years ago, when industry in the North began to collapse and be outsourced, that is basically when the move south began. It wasn't the weather, it was the economy. That trend has continued, although a lot of northern cities that were steadily losing jobs and population have began to make a serious turn in the other direction as those cities were forced to rethink and diversify their economies. Minneapolis, Columbus, Indy, Milwaukee, Des Moines, Chicago, etc are all seeing steady and strong growth now, yet all of those cities have cold and snowy winters. That doesn't really fit your theory at all. The North, in many areas, now has lower to much lower unemployment than most of the South and West. And if people think that cost of living is going to stay low in the South when they have explosive growth is naive. Someone is going to have to pay to improve infrastructure (something the South is lacking in comparison to the established North), schools, hospitals, etc.
Umm...

ok lots of things to consider here.

The gateway for immigrants was in NYC making that ground zero.

However, you have to realize the social views back then. It wasn't ... oh we don't have A/C or simply we think it is hot. There were alot of health issues and scares about life further south. There were many more mosquitoes that lived in the heat and humidity. There was a higher chance disease could spread fast in dense populations.
The technology of that era made it easy to heat a place, but hard to cool.

Weather seems to have played a big roll. A/C definitely helped, but it isn't the only technological innovations that made the south more habitable for larger populations. Better health centers, disease control, and pesticides all played a big part as well.

If you go far back enough in history there was a time where many people were concerned that building the capital in DC was a bad idea. It was building it in a hot swamp and there was bound to be lots of mosquitoes. While DC is definitely in the south, it is at the northern extent.

Yes there was a point in time where industrial production was outsourced to other areas (midwest) as the area grew, but you have to remember why the north grew first and what conditions that had to be overcome to grow in other areas.
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Old 02-06-2011, 02:52 PM
 
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The modern day mode of tranportation is airway and train. Both are abundant in the South. Water is an issue, but that is also everywhere. You mean to tell me NYC has never had drought issues? Come on man...
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Old 02-06-2011, 05:02 PM
 
56,607 posts, read 80,890,793 times
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Originally Posted by adavi215 View Post
The modern day mode of tranportation is airway and train. Both are abundant in the South. Water is an issue, but that is also everywhere. You mean to tell me NYC has never had drought issues? Come on man...
I don't thinl water is much of an issue in the NE, especially inland. So, I feel that the US should really look at protecting the Great Lakes, as water might become more valuable. I guess snow serves a purpose in that regard as well.
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Old 02-07-2011, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Birmingham
11,787 posts, read 13,361,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
And seriously, if you have to stay inside your house or car to avoid the heat, doesn't that defeat the purpose of people moving south to escape the cold? It's not like people are outside in 100 degree heat with 80% humidity enjoying themselves. No, they're holed up in the A/C.
Seriously. Way to take a comment out of context and run with it. Maybe I should have said we are always outside in the sun on the beach, playing in our outdoor above ground pools and slip and slides or going to water parks instead of working, commuting to work, shopping in malls, going to the museums, movies, library etc like all you fancy northerners do.

There's no "hole up" involved.

Also, the point of my "things I've never done/had to do rant" was to be taken as a whole, not to invite Northerners who can pick and choose a couple of things as "proof" of winter life being the same here as it is there. Let me add another one: I doubt you or your kids have ever been sent home from school early/or had school canceled the next day because of the threat of snow.

Last edited by Tourian; 02-07-2011 at 09:27 AM..
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Old 02-07-2011, 09:42 AM
 
2,109 posts, read 5,135,829 times
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Quote:
So then why, when our nation was first growing, did so many people settle in the North? Why was the North the population capital for most of this nation's lifespan? Have winters gotten worse? No. If anything, they have gotten milder. It is NOT winter. 30 years ago, when industry in the North began to collapse and be outsourced, that is basically when the move south began. It wasn't the weather, it was the economy. That trend has continued, although a lot of northern cities that were steadily losing jobs and population have began to make a serious turn in the other direction as those cities were forced to rethink and diversify their economies. Minneapolis, Columbus, Indy, Milwaukee, Des Moines, Chicago, etc are all seeing steady and strong growth now, yet all of those cities have cold and snowy winters. That doesn't really fit your theory at all. The North, in many areas, now has lower to much lower unemployment than most of the South and West. And if people think that cost of living is going to stay low in the South when they have explosive growth is naive. Someone is going to have to pay to improve infrastructure (something the South is lacking in comparison to the established North), schools, hospitals, etc.
I grew up in the South and left in my 20's. All of my relatives still live there. You mention that the South lacks infrastructure-aka-public transportation, schools, hospitals, etc. My Mother is a school teacher. In her school alone in TN she said they received 10 new students from California this year alone. Her school was actually expanded. In addition a new middle school was built nearby. There is a brand-new hospital in town and on top of that, my parents work out in a huge brand-new fitness center with an indoor heated Olympic sized pool that is also part of their healthcare system, and what's more- its cheap.This is just one example. The city of Chattanooga was one of the very first city in the country to install a fleet of electric buses. The City of Nashville- albeit a small city- is working on their first subway system. Like I said- I grew up there and I have lived on both coasts. There is absolutely no comparison. The South is a robust and healthy region and is doing just fine with its infrastructure. The fact that you can drive down most any freeway in the South and not have to dodge pot holes is proof enough.

Secondly- why did people settle heavily in the Northern part of the US? Because that's where all the infrastructure was. That and right up until the 1950's there was a very big reason why the Southern US was sort of cutoff from the rest of the country: The Appalachian mountain chain. Not until the Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highway was implemented starting in 1956 did a system of high speed roads make traveling to and from the Southern US easier as well as have more consistent commerce and trade throughout the region.

As mentioned, the Northern US had all of the industry and being the non-telecommuting workers we used to be, you had to stay where the business was. But now that the Southern US for the most part has a full compliment of everything that the North has- including robust infrastructure, a diversified job market, and so on, the last two pieces of the pie are more like cherries on top: Affordable housing AND warmer weather. Will it remain affordable? Perhaps not forever. But given the huge amount of undeveloped land and lack of natural boundaries I suspect it will be a very long time before that were to occur.

All I know is that after my 12 years of living on the coasts- up North and out West- that the Southeast enjoys an unparalleled quality of living that can't as easily be had-especially in the higher cost coastal states. Sure- perhaps some of my opinion comes from regional pride. But I've experienced the comparisons firsthand and personally I can't wait to move back.

As far as the cold weather.... you all can have it all to yourselves.
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