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Old 01-31-2011, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,523 posts, read 7,475,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
I bet more people are aware that there were pre-European civilizations in North America than realize that most European were living a lifestyle/economy much like Native Americans at the time of Christ.

At the time of Christ the Roman empire ruled much of Europe. Cities with running water delivered by an ingenius system of aqueducts, sewers and bathouses were scattered acrost the empire. Most cities had an ampetheater, and roads to connect them to the rest of the empire. Goods moved upon these roads improving the lives of Roman citizens. The Romans recorded thier history, had an extensive system of laws and goverment. The Romans had a powerful and well disciplined military to control this vast empire. The European of the Roman were much much more developed than the Indians of North America at first contact. Even those Europeans living outside the borders of Rome lived better than North American Indians, as they had metal working skills and more productive agriculture. Absolutely no comparison betwenn Europeans of that era and the American Indians. You would have to go back to 2500-3000 bc to find Europeans living in the same conditions as American Indians. That being said Europeans have always had the advantage of more cross cultural contact. Inventions and Ideas from the Arab world, the Orient and Europe have been traded back in forth for millenia. This gave civilizations on the Eurasian land mass a great advantage that those isolated in the Americas did not have. I dont believe its fair to judge them by the same standard given that fact.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,440 posts, read 31,751,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I'm aware of Cahokia and it's quite impressive. Still it's not the same as civilizations that had literacy and advanced astronomy (Mayas, Aztecs) or had metal-working and a vast communication system (Incas).
The Meso Mississipian culture had an immense trade network, which would tend to be linked to a communication network.
Dunno, sounds pretty much like civilization to me........





A number of cultural traits are recognized as being characteristic of the Mississippians. Although not all Mississippian peoples practiced all of the following activities, they were distinct from their ancestors in adoption of some or all of these traits.
  1. The construction of large, truncated earthwork pyramid mounds, or platform mounds. Such mounds were usually square, rectangular, or occasionally circular. Structures (domestic houses, temples, burial buildings, or other) were usually constructed atop such mounds.
  2. Maize-based agriculture. In most places, the development of Mississippian culture coincided with adoption of comparatively large-scale, intensive maize agriculture, which supported larger populations and craft specialization.
  3. The adoption and use of riverine (or more rarely marine) shell-tempering agents in their ceramics.
  4. Widespread trade networks extending as far west as the Rockies, north to the Great Lakes, south to the Gulf of Mexico, and east to the Atlantic Ocean.
  5. The development of the chiefdom or complex chiefdom level of social complexity.
  6. The development of institutionalized social inequality.
  7. A centralization of control of combined political and religious power in the hands of few or one.
  8. The beginnings of a settlement hierarchy, in which one major center (with mounds) has clear influence or control over a number of lesser communities, which may or may not possess a smaller number of mounds.
  9. The adoption of the paraphernalia of the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex (SECC), also called the Southern Cult. This is the belief system of the Mississippians as we know it. SECC items are found in Mississippian-culture sites from Wisconsin (see Aztalan State Park) to the Gulf Coast, and from Florida to Arkansas and Oklahoma. The SECC was frequently tied in to ritual game-playing, as with chunkey.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:42 PM
 
Location: SW Missouri
15,847 posts, read 30,385,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever View Post
Comparatively speaking, these "native" Americans [DNA pinpoints them coming from areas of modern-day Mongolia and North Central China] were savages, compared to that of Western Civilization which grew out of Western Europe.

Wow, a "farm", a few buildings, etc. Compare that to advanced technologies such as that found in the space program, electronics, computers, the light bulb, etc. It's preposterous to call them advanced. Hey, the "native" Americans can't even hold a candle to ancient Chinese, Babylonian, and Egyptian civilizations.

By the way, there very well may have been Europeans on this land that predated the so-called Asiatic "natives", as various artifacts and skeletons have been found which seem to support this hypothesis.



The vast majority were uncivilized savages.
Although, historically, there are records of some altercations, most of these people lived in peace with each other. That is a heck of a lot more civilized than modern man, JMHO.

20yrsiBranson
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:04 AM
 
6,932 posts, read 8,097,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
At the time of Christ the Roman empire ruled much of Europe. Cities with running water delivered by an ingenius system of aqueducts, sewers and bathouses were scattered acrost the empire. Most cities had an ampetheater, and roads to connect them to the rest of the empire. Goods moved upon these roads improving the lives of Roman citizens. The Romans recorded thier history, had an extensive system of laws and goverment. The Romans had a powerful and well disciplined military to control this vast empire. The European of the Roman were much much more developed than the Indians of North America at first contact. Even those Europeans living outside the borders of Rome lived better than North American Indians, as they had metal working skills and more productive agriculture. Absolutely no comparison betwenn Europeans of that era and the American Indians. You would have to go back to 2500-3000 bc to find Europeans living in the same conditions as American Indians. That being said Europeans have always had the advantage of more cross cultural contact. Inventions and Ideas from the Arab world, the Orient and Europe have been traded back in forth for millenia. This gave civilizations on the Eurasian land mass a great advantage that those isolated in the Americas did not have. I dont believe its fair to judge them by the same standard given that fact.
Nonsense

The Mayans and the Incas were just as "civilized" as the Romans. Both civilizations had dense cities. To say that there were more civilizations on the European landmass is just insane.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:07 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland
4,028 posts, read 6,401,900 times
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I find this thread funny and kind of pathetic. Like it has been said before, most of you are looking at things through an ethnocentric view. The idea that there are "civilized" or "uncivilized" cultures is laughable.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Mt. Airy
5,311 posts, read 5,338,696 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePR View Post
I find this thread funny and kind of pathetic. Like it has been said before, most of you are looking at things through an ethnocentric view. The idea that there are "civilized" or "uncivilized" cultures is laughable.
So then tell us your thoughts on the matter. I'm interested to see what you have to say, but saying "no one on this thread knows what they're talking about" isn't very enlightening.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Scotland
431 posts, read 577,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
I'm referring to North America, specifically the US. Many were taught that the natives here were just hunters and gatherers who were uncivilized.

Watch the video, and you will hear the narrator say, "most Americans".
Funny, I was educated in the US and I recall learning about the Aztecs as soon as 3rd grade.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:27 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,534 posts, read 17,764,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
At the time of Christ the Roman empire ruled much of Europe.
At the time of Christ, the Romans had barely penetrated beyond the Rhine or much past modern England. It never ruled Scandinavia or Eastern Europe north of the Balkans/Black Sea. While its true that Roman towns were sophisticated outposts of civilization, they were outposts. Most Europeans weren't living in those towns, they were living in huts and log houses and herding sheep, hunting hares, and drinking water collected from streams.

By the logic that the Romans's control of a territory civilized it, you could say that in Colonial American times, most Native Americans were eating off of Pewter plates and listening to harpsichord music in their walnut paneled living rooms while reading the latest discoveries of Newton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thePR View Post
The idea that there are "civilized" or "uncivilized" cultures is laughable.
Civilization does not denote worth or quality or values. It does not imply good or bad, intelligent or dumb. Civilization describes a society that possesses a suite of traits that imply social complexity and stratification. See the list in kshe95girl's post above.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:09 PM
 
492 posts, read 1,019,152 times
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Early Romans looked towards the east for culture and reference, (Greece, Egypt Persians, and other cities near Mesopotamia) Of course there were already very advanced and sophisticated cultures further East such as in the Indus valley (cities were large and had running water as well as large drainage systems). Territories that today encompass Germany, France, England and northern Europe were mostly made up of nomadic tribes.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,523 posts, read 7,475,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
Nonsense

The Mayans and the Incas were just as "civilized" as the Romans. Both civilizations had dense cities. To say that there were more civilizations on the European landmass is just insane.

Anyone who believes that Mayan civilization is equal to that of Rome, or Greece for that matter is fooling oneself in the interest of promoting a politically correct version of history. Im not knocking the Mayans, or the Inca but anyone living in reality can see that Europeans were living in a greater level of civilization at any given point up to first contact. Where is the Mayan aqueducts??? Mayan arches, Mayan concrete, how about Mayan metal working skills? Mayan shipbuilding and exploration??? Mayan books and literature???
The Mayans did build wonderful cities, and they had an excelent knowlege of the stars but sorry to say they dont come anywhere near the level of development that Rome did. Like I said in my previous post it would be unfair to expect them too, as Rome had the advantage of much more cross cultural contact. They were exposed to many more foriegn ideas and technology than are any of the peoples of the Americas.
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