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How about affirmative action? How is affirmative action fair to anyone? It's unfair to the majority because they are discriminated against and it's unfair to the minority because it makes them strive less for achievement in my opinion.
This I dont agree with.A foot in a door where it has been closed does not give anyone anythng but access.Thats afirmative action.Not giving someone a job because they are not qualified is not and it should never be.
I've been to the US several times and I love the diversity. All the different people and the amazing scenery. If you rent a car and explore the small towns or the medium-sized cities across the country you get to see the real thing. Of course, NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Chicago... Major cities are wonderful, but I like to just get lost.
There are places in the USA where I could picture myself spending some years of my life (especially New England and the Pacific Northwest: love the weather, love the ocean, people are perhaps closer to my ideas) and others where I would rather not be more than, say, 2 or 3 months, but this doesn't mean that these places are devoid of interest. Not at all. I've never been to a place in the US which I can call boring or unpleasant. I'm not religious but even church life in the traditional, conservative South was fascinating to me, and I don't mean this in a "oh look, so weird!" way, but respectfully so.
Of course, America (like any other place) is far from perfect and, at the end of the day, I feel more at ease back home because it's what I'm used to, but it's such a huge country and it has a lot to offer. Not to be missed.
So we're back to what you think. Well, if that's all you got, I think differently. Given I know how the law works, I'll stick with my knowledge.
So after that deflection, this is an example of minorities "walking all over" the majority HOW again? After all, that's the point what you raised. Do I need to resurrect your quotes you keep dodging again?
I'm waiting
I'm not dodging any of my quotes, you just infer things from my quotes and put words in my mouth.
And I already showed you how it's a possible example. If a company feels like it has to bring less qualified employees on because they are minorities & they have to have something good to show in case of an AA lawsuit, then that is a problem. If you don't agree that's fine, but if I ran a business I wouldn't want to hire the less qualified employees to cover my rear, no matter their race or gender. If they do their job and do it well then I'd be honored to have such an employee. I know once again there is no quota and I'm not claiming there is.
And yes I DO think that happens because I've seen it happen. I'm not a victim, however, and I'm not claiming to be.
you just infer things from my quotes and put words in my mouth.
Really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerTHB
Yes, and to tell you the truth the United States is better than most about that issue. However, letting a minority walk all over you because your in the majority doesn't make you less racist than someone that sees the races as true equals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm02
Care to give examples of minorities walking all over the majority?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerTHB
How about affirmative action? How is affirmative action fair to anyone? It's unfair to the majority because they are discriminated against and it's unfair to the minority because it makes them strive less for achievement in my opinion.
So, how does a "minority walk all over you because your (sic) in the majority"? Still dodging the question?
Look, it's OK to admit that Affirmative Action was not a proper example to illustrate your contention that a minority (which one, I wonder?) "walks all over" the majority. People take back mistakes all the time. But if you feel you have a valid point, you've spent pointless posts dodging a very simple question.
I'm waiting
[Before you answer, please read my previous posts which explain how Affirmative Action works, as you continue to demonstrate you do not understand it.]
So for emphasis - once and for all - PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION: So, how does Affirmative Action permit a "minority walk all over you because your (sic) in the majority"?
So for emphasis - once and for all - PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION: So, how does Affirmative Action permit a "minority walk all over you because your (sic) in the majority"?
If a company feels like it has to bring less qualified employees on because they are minorities & they have to have something good to show in case of an AA lawsuit, then that is a problem.
Which is the exact thing that I just posted that you "replied" to (that you also didn't include in your quotations of my posts). Do you think that sort of stuff doesn't go on because that is one thing that I can honestly say I have seen. (And I'm still not a victim). What is typed in bold above is an indirect effect of the AA law. I'm not saying that it's the intention of the law itself, but it is real none the less. If your talking about direct effects then your right it's not the best example, but my posts about the AA law haven't been about it's direct effects, they've been about it's indirect (and unintended) effects.
If a company feels like it has to bring less qualified employees on because they are minorities & they have to have something good to show in case of an AA lawsuit, then that is a problem.
Which is the exact thing that I just posted that you "replied" to (that you also didn't include in your quotations of my posts). Do you think that sort of stuff doesn't go on because that is one thing that I can honestly say I have seen. (And I'm still not a victim). What is typed in bold above is an indirect effect of the AA law. I'm not saying that it's the intention of the law itself, but it is real none the less. If your talking about direct effects then your right it's not the best example, but my posts about the AA law haven't been about it's direct effects, they've been about it's indirect (and unintended) effects.
In this hypothetical scenario, IF that might happen, that would be a problem. As I've already explained, however, those companies would be violating the law, and when found out, would be subject to fines. So instead of avoiding a lawsuit, they invite one. That provides the very strong incentive for companies NOT to do this. As you hopefully recall, I provided links to examples where white males who were so discriminated against were consequently compensated.
That said, even if a company does this, how is this an example of a minority "walking all over" the majority???
In this hypothetical scenario, IF that might happen, that would be a problem. As I've already explained, however, those companies would be violating the law, and when found out, would be subject to fines. So instead of avoiding a lawsuit, they invite one. That provides the very strong incentive for companies NOT to do this. As you hopefully recall, I provided links to examples where white males who were so discriminated against were consequently compensated.
That said, even if a company does this, how is this an example of a minority "walking all over" the majority???
A less qualified candidate getting a job over a more qualified candidate because the company wants to cover it's own rear? Sounds exactly like it to me.
And yes I know the company can be fined for doing such a practice, but there is a certain line they have to balance on. If all the employees of a company were one race and one gender, it wouldn't look good if they were brought into court on charges of violating AA. Regardless, that doesn't mean that the scenario I described doesn't happen, because it does.
I will grant you the fact AA isn't the best example of the minority walking over the majority. I should have been more clear. The reason why it came into my mind is the fact that I believe that a man or woman can make himself or herself in this country, no matter his or her race. Maybe I think people are less racist than they actually are, but I don't really see the need for AA anymore.
Regardless, we have strayed a bit off topic.
Last edited by GunnerTHB; 04-16-2011 at 03:26 PM..
A less qualified candidate getting a job over a more qualified candidate because the company wants to cover it's own rear? Sounds exactly like it to me.
And yes I know the company can be fined for doing such a practice, but there is a certain line they have to balance on. If all the employees of a company were one race and one gender, it wouldn't look good if they were brought into court on charges of violating AA. Regardless, that doesn't mean that the scenario I described doesn't happen, because it does.
I will grant you the fact AA isn't the best example of the minority walking over the majority. I should have been more clear. The reason why it came into my mind is the fact that I believe that a man or woman can make himself or herself in this country, no matter his or her race. Maybe I think people are less racist than they actually are, but I don't really see the need for AA anymore.
Regardless, we have strayed a bit off topic.
Yes, we have strayed off the topic a bit (this happens in CD). I do find one thing I think you are saying troubling. You seem to be saying fears of a lawsuit has led companies to sometimes select a person of color over a more qualified white person and that you've seen it. I'd be careful in looking at a situation and thinking I know what is going on. Who decides whether a candidate is more qualified than another? You? Me? Based on what? My gut tells me that quite a few non-qualifed white men have also been selected for jobs, and I suspect sometimes as the expense of a person of color. (Actually, more than my gut - I spent many years in corporate America.)
You and I simply disagree over the need to continue AA. "Affirmative Actions" are steps employers must take to expand their pool of eligible applicants, then may the best man or woman win. Companies don't hire people - people who work for companies hire people. Without AA outreach to expand the applicant pool, I think it's likely well-meaning people will revert to what's comfortable - seeking applicants from where they went to college, their church, their country club or their neighborhood. This dynamic would be the same regardless of the race of the person who is doing the hiring - people tend to migrant towards and appreciate those who are similar to them (nepotism is the ultimate example of this). The rub comes because in the majority culture of corporate America, most of the people doing this hiring are white males. Hence AA provides a more diverse slate of applicants with a chance to even compete.
Does it work perfectly all the time? No. Does it mean we should scrap the whole thing? Not in my opinion.
I live in Tampa. I love that the US is a global hegemon. I do not want to sound arrogant about that statement, and I actually don't like when we throw our weight around too much...but I have to admit that I'd rather live in a country that has weight to throw around.
I also love that the US is so phyically/geographically large. The US has deserts, mountains, jungles, forests, plains, arctics, tropics, temperate climes, coasts, beaches, islands, large lakes, three major coastlines...it's just an awesomely diverse place, geographically.
I like the difference in cultures but that we're also ONE culture.
I like that everyone has different heritages...English, Scottish, Irish, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Scandinavian, Eastern European, Greek, American Indian, Hispanic, etc etc...
To the OP...I wouldn't sell the UK short. I think Edinburgh is my second favorite city in Europe, after Rome. The people in the UK are super as well.
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