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I will rate them as the following according to personal experience
1) Toronto (Markham-Richmond Hills)
2) Los Angeles (Monterey Park, San Gabriel, Alhambra)
3) New York (Flushing)
4) Vancouver (Richmond)
5) San Francisco
Rating is based on real authentic non-China town Chinese restaurants, which means no general tao chicken, lemon chicken (or lemon anything), sweat and sour beef or heavy oyster sauce on pretty much everything.
Do you agree?
i think you definitely nailed the top five chinese food cities in north america, but i'd probably change the order.
specifically, i'd rank nyc (flushing) #5 for sure. the other four are up for debate, as i'll explain below.
flushing does actually have some good chinese eateries across a variety of regional cuisines (sichuan, dongbei, beijing/tianjin, henan, xi'an, etc), but i've found better examples of each of those subcuisines in LA's san gabriel valley, with a higher overall average level of taste, quality, and freshness of ingredients compared with flushing. that said, flushing is no slouch whatsoever and has improved dramatically in the past 10-15 years. it is easily the third best chinese food neighborhood in the nation and fifth best in north america IMO. but it has too many "duds" from my experience (including quite a few super authentic spots) to rank ahead of those other cities. of course, maybe i'm biased because i've eaten at more chinese restaurants (and thus had more opportunities for mediocre experiences) in flushing/nyc than anywhere else.
i don't know whether to rank the bay area or the los angeles area #1 or #2 in the nation, though. i've eaten at a pretty wide range of chinese restaurants in the san gabriel valley and flushing and have a good idea of how they stack up, but have only checked out a limited number of spots in the bay area (most of which have been very good-to-great, btw). the thing is, almost all of the bay area places i've eaten at are cantonese, with a couple of taiwanese and mainland chinese spots for good measure.
here's the thing - and take this with a grain of salt if you must since it's all hearsay:
i have a pretty decent number of chinese friends in the bay area. some are cantonese and almost exclusively eat cantonese food when they go to local chinese restaurants. since the bay area has some terrific cantonese restaurants (many of which are in the suburbs), and since cantonese food in the bay area is arguably better than in los angeles, these guys will swear to anyone who will listen that the bay area has the best chinese food in the nation, hands down. the only place they might concede is better is vancouver, which is near-universally praised for its cantonese restaurant scene.
OTOH, i also have some taiwanese and mainland chinese foodie friends residing in the bay. a few of these guys have lived previously in nyc, los angeles, vancouver, toronto, and/or china/taiwan. and the consensus with these guys is that while the bay area's cantonese food is great (especially outside of sf proper), the mainland and taiwanese selection can be hit-or-miss. according to them, there simply aren't as many mainland and taiwanese options compared to los angeles (san gabriel valley), and the average level of quality is not up to par, either, despite some individual gems. again, this is not firsthand, so take it for what it's worth.
los angeles definitely has a ton of mainland, cantonese, and taiwanese eateries, and i've eaten at a bunch, so i can pretty confidently say that it beats nyc in this regard. what i'm not sure of is whether the bay area's top-notch cantonese overshadows a lesser-known but excellent and varied mainland/taiwanese restaurant scene, or if my friends' assumptions are correct.
if the former is true, then the bay area would be the nation's #1. if the latter is true, then LA is #1 in the nation.
as for where vancouver and toronto fit into this...again, i'm not sure, simply because i've only eaten cantonese food in these cities' newer/suburban chinatowns. i honestly don't know if both of these cities have as much variety of regional mainland chinese eateries at the quantity and quality level of LA's san gabriel valley. if so, then they might be #1 and #2. and even not, the strength of the cantonese food i ate alone in these cities is enough for me to rank them in the top 4 at an absolute minimum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evissone
"Chinese population" doesn't really matter that much as you think. that depends on the composition of those Chinese people.
If the vast Chinese population is predominantly second or third generation of Cantonese speaking Chinese, they are unlikely to produce high quality authentic Chinese food, as they tend to adhere to their tradition of making 1980's highly Americanized Chinese food. No one will eat those in 2011 modern Chinese cities.
On the other hand, if there is a large number of new Chinese immigrants (from mainland Chinese, not just Hong Kong), the restaurants tend to be better as they bring the latest cooking and more authentic food.
this is very true. i totally agree.
i would like to add, though, that access to the freshest authentic ingredients year-round is critical for chinese cuisine, which gives vancouver, the sf bay area, and the LA area a distinct advantage over nyc/flushing from my experience. not sure how toronto fares in this regard.
Quote:
A rule of thumb is, if a restaurant area is predominantly Cantonese speaking (the chef, the waiters), the food tends to be westernized - not that I have anything against Cantonese, but the truth is they immigrated to North American much earlier than Mandarin speakers, and they hardly innovate their cooking style. After years of operation, the food is westernized (general tao chicken is American food, not Chinese food for example). I ranked San Fran and Vancouver lower despite their high Chinese population precisely because of this.
here's where i respectfully disagree with you. there has actually been a resurgence of new wave, high-end cantonese restaurants in vancouver/sf bay area/LA's san gabriel valley that produce some of the best cantonese food in north america. some of the top places even bring in renowned chefs from hong kong (albeit usually only for a limited engagement) who import the freshest ingredients and utilize the latest cooking techniques, just like the best restaurants in HK. in fact, the strength of these super refined cantonese restaurants is precisely why i rate vancouver and the sf bay area ahead of nyc when it comes to chinese food despite the fact that i'm not sure how varied their mainland and taiwanese restaurant scene is. because quite honestly, you can't get anything on that level (regardless of regional subcuisine) in nyc/flushing.
here's where i respectfully disagree with you. there has actually been a resurgence of new wave, high-end cantonese restaurants in vancouver/sf bay area/LA's san gabriel valley that produce some of the best cantonese food in north america. some of the top places even bring in renowned chefs from hong kong (albeit usually only for a limited engagement) who import the freshest ingredients and utilize the latest cooking techniques, just like the best restaurants in HK. in fact, the strength of these super refined cantonese restaurants is precisely why i rate vancouver and the sf bay area ahead of nyc when it comes to chinese food despite the fact that i'm not sure how varied their mainland and taiwanese restaurant scene is. because quite honestly, you can't get anything on that level (regardless of regional subcuisine) in nyc/flushing.
I respect your opinion. I personally am not a fan of Cantonese style cooking, which is kind of a bias.
On the other hand, if a city or neighbourhood is highly cantonese speaking, the food tends to be less diversifed, although Cantonese food can be good to many. I'd like to remind westerners that Canton (Guangdong) is only a province of China, and Canonese style food, as most Americans are most familar with, is no way representative of Chinese cuisine. China has eight most famous major regional cuisine style, and Cantonese is just one of the eight. You can't rate a city higher than others just because Cantonese restaurants are better and more. There are better, newer food out there, sometimes outside of your comfort zone (chicken feet, pork liver, beef tongue, lamb kidney, duck chin etc), be more open. Outside Southern China, Cantonese food is not even that popular.
It is like 20 years ago American think Cantonese language IS Chinese language, now many realize it is just a dialect of hundreds. The same goes for food.
That's exactly my point.
I have eaten in Chinatown restaurants in numerous North American cities, and they are almost equally bad.
I believe Toronto and LA have best Chinese restaurants (years of personal experience), but not Chinatown. There is not one single Chinese restaurant in Chinatown in either of these cities I can describe as "OK" or "not bad". They are just bad. 95% of those are run by second or third generation Cantonese speaking Chinese who are stuck with their old and obsolete cooking style which almost purely caters to western diners who cannot handle real Chinese food. Let me put it this one, none of these Chinatown restaurants can survive a month if they are in Shanghai or Beijing, purely because the cooking is very coarse and the food is bad.
Honestly, for a westerner, if he never ordered "fish filet in hot oil pot with chilli", "Pork intestine in toufu soup", or feels slightest uncomfortable eating chicken feet or pig tails, he is not in a position to judge Chinese food, and should better stick with his "orange chicken" or "beef and broccoli in oyster sauce" type of western style Chinatown food.
I highly praise Chinese food in Toronto. But living only 15 minutes walking distance from Chinatown, I almost never eat there. I wouldn't go even if everything is half its price. The same for Chinatowns in other cities.
Next time you want to check out a restaurant in LA's Chinatown, try Mandarin Chateau. It's very non-touristy and quite delicious.
There are also quite a few Chinese-language websites that focus on restaurant reviews. For instance, this one has reviews of restaurants in the Vancouver area:
"Chinese population" doesn't really matter that much as you think. that depends on the composition of those Chinese people.
If the vast Chinese population is predominantly second or third generation of Cantonese speaking Chinese, they are unlikely to produce high quality authentic Chinese food, as they tend to adhere to their tradition of making 1980's highly Americanized Chinese food. No one will eat those in 2011 modern Chinese cities.
On the other hand, if there is a large number of new Chinese immigrants (from mainland Chinese, not just Hong Kong), the restaurants tend to be better as they bring the latest cooking and more authentic food.
A rule of thumb is, if a restaurant area is predominantly Cantonese speaking (the chef, the waiters), the food tends to be westernized - not that I have anything against Cantonese, but the truth is they immigrated to North American much earlier than Mandarin speakers, and they hardly innovate their cooking style. After years of operation, the food is westernized (general tao chicken is American food, not Chinese food for example). I ranked San Fran and Vancouver lower despite their high Chinese population precisely because of this.
A real authentic Chinese restaurants, like someone mentioned, usually caters to mostly Chinese clienteles. They won't even make something like orange chicken or sour and sweet shrimp balls because that's not Chinese food to start with.And if it is on the menu, Chinese customers will doubt the authenticity of the food there in general (I would)
Some restaurants attempt to please both Chinese and Americans, and therefore have two sets of menus. Some of the food is only in English, because Chinese customers will never order it, and some is only in Chinese because Americans will never know what it is not to mention order it.
Another rule of thumb of good Chinese restaurants is to look at its menu. In 2010's, no good and competitive Chinese restaurants in Shanghai will provide customers a one or two page menu with only words. The menu are getting thick sometimes weigh half a pound (no kidding), some with leather bound covers, with tons of photos (of dishes) in it. When you see that, you have the comfort of being in an authentic Chinese restaurants.
Not really sure if I was the one you intended to quote here, but I never said anything about the overall populations determining anything. I agree with you about the composition, and Cantonese outside of dim sum is probably my least favorite style of Chinese cuisine.
In my post you'd quoted I was making the point that the restaurants that are most authentic cater to a predominantly Chinese clientele - meaning Chinese dialects are what are spoken in said restaurants. I'm not getting why you attached my post to this one of yours.
I agree about the immigrant populations being where the best food is at. Or at least the establishments that cater to them. And I am not one to limit myself to lemon chicken and beef w/ broccoli. I thought my list of restaurants around SF that were anything but Cantonese/Americanized crap would have let you know that already. Again, I'm confused.
But I disagree that a Cantonese restaurant will be Westernized as a rule. It may be commonplace, but there are exceptions. There are still plenty of recent HK/Cantonese immigrants coming here, and even the more authentic Shanghainese, etc. places tend to have lunch menus where they will make the regular Americanized crap if you really want it. Just like most Chinese restaurants, they will make whatever you want if you request it whether it's on the menu or not.
I will rate them as the following according to personal experience
1) Toronto (Markham-Richmond Hills)
2) Los Angeles (Monterey Park, San Gabriel, Alhambra)
3) New York (Flushing)
4) Vancouver (Richmond)
5) San Francisco
Rating is based on real authentic non-China town Chinese restaurants, which means no general tao chicken, lemon chicken (or lemon anything), sweat and sour beef or heavy oyster sauce on pretty much everything.
Do you agree?
Good list, but I'd flip Toronto for LA, and put NYC last (it has some regional Chinese cuisine but they tend to be regions of China that aren't that good at cooking ).
Vancouver and SF are sort of on equal footing, but regional variety and excellence have been LA and Toronto's scene for a while now, even if the former 2 are more known for their chinese food. Any real discussion about Chinese food in the US, the conversation inevitably leads to San Gabriel Valley in LA.
As for the guy who praised Chinatown in NYC over Flushing? That's funny.
Also, I don't think anyone should dismiss Manhattan's chinatown out of hand. The fact is that that Chinatown has continued to see a large amount of recent immigration and is not simply a relic neighborhood--it is absolutely a living, thriving, and even expanding community. There may be some age-old restaurants making bowdlerized chinese food, but they aren't the whole of the story nor are they particularly important to this discussion.
The best Chinese food I've had outside of China is in the San Gabriel Valley east of Los Angeles. And this includes the Chinatowns I've been to in Canada and Europe.
Toronto might be up there but I've not been there frequently enough to compare.
The best Chinese food I've had outside of China is in the San Gabriel Valley east of Los Angeles. And this includes the Chinatowns I've been to in Canada and Europe.
Toronto might be up there but I've not been there frequently enough to compare.
San Francisco is pretty hit or miss..
The general consensus is that the San Gabriel Valley and Toronto run neck and neck for Chinese(slight edge to the SGV) San Francisco right behind, and New York in 4th. Take it for what it's worth.
EDIT: eh, forgot about Vancouver. Gets a lot more love than Flushing, honestly.
Last edited by RaymondChandlerLives; 03-12-2012 at 02:41 PM..
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