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Old 05-17-2016, 08:38 AM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,152,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ialmostforgot View Post
1. True
2. A lot of the little metros aren't very blue.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Fevwna4wbi...-By-County.png
Fair on the smaller areas but those blue represent close to 7 of the 9 million people. Not much population in the middle of the state or better said is much less dense in the mountains which dominate the land area of PA
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Arch City
1,724 posts, read 1,226,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ialmostforgot View Post
This definition seems to be the increasingly popular one. Now even North Carolina has been called "Mid-Atlantic" and in the VA thread asking in VA is northern or southern, and it has nearly 80 pages!

Some poster replied saying something along the lines of, "Virginia is not northern or southern. It's Mid-Atlantic."

Another person said VA is a border state, and that it has northern and southern influences. That's what they said about Maryland in the old days (2010, 2015, etc.)!
Those people are wrong. Virginia is still a Southern state.
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Old 05-17-2016, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,512 posts, read 2,971,553 times
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Here's an article today from FiveThirtyEight (right on time!) that illustrates Pennsylvania's status as a "tipping point state":

Why Pennsylvania Could Decide The 2016 Election | FiveThirtyEight

"Western Pennsylvania is driving the state’s rightward drift — its voting patterns now resemble greater Appalachia’s more than those of the Philadelphia suburbs. Once dominated by steel towns and union Democrats, the region has reveled in a fracking/natural gas boom that has more recently experienced a downturn and has revolted against EPA regulations. Obama’s infamous “bitter clingers” remark in 2008 didn’t do Democrats any favors either."


"But the rest of the state accounted for 58 percent of all votes in 2012 and is trending red even faster. In 1992, Clinton took 53 percent outside of the Philadelphia media market. In 2012, Obama took just 45 percent."

"But if Clinton wants to keep him out of the White House, she may need to build a Pennsylvania firewall. Perhaps that’s a good reason Democrats are holding their convention in Philadelphia in 10 weeks."


Bottom line, Pennsylvania is not as solidly blue as many think, and in that aspect, shares much in common with Virginia, a state that I have no problems also qualifying as Mid-Atlantic (but not Northern/Northeastern).
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Old 05-17-2016, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Arch City
1,724 posts, read 1,226,170 times
Reputation: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Here's an article today from FiveThirtyEight (right on time!) that illustrates Pennsylvania's status as a "tipping point state":

Why Pennsylvania Could Decide The 2016 Election | FiveThirtyEight

"Western Pennsylvania is driving the state’s rightward drift — its voting patterns now resemble greater Appalachia’s more than those of the Philadelphia suburbs. Once dominated by steel towns and union Democrats, the region has reveled in a fracking/natural gas boom that has more recently experienced a downturn and has revolted against EPA regulations. Obama’s infamous “bitter clingers” remark in 2008 didn’t do Democrats any favors either."

"But the rest of the state accounted for 58 percent of all votes in 2012 and is trending red even faster. In 1992, Clinton took 53 percent outside of the Philadelphia media market. In 2012, Obama took just 45 percent."

"But if Clinton wants to keep him out of the White House, she may need to build a Pennsylvania firewall. Perhaps that’s a good reason Democrats are holding their convention in Philadelphia in 10 weeks."

Bottom line, Pennsylvania is not as solidly blue as many think, and in that aspect, shares much in common with Virginia, a state that I have no problems also qualifying as Mid-Atlantic (but not Northern/Northeastern).
Virginia is a Southern state, not a Mid-Atlantic one. Mid-Atlantic refers to lower Northeast....Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland. Virginia is culturally and linguistically Southern unlike the 4 of those and it makes zero sense to group Virginia in with the states to the north of it in any way, shape, or form.
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Old 05-17-2016, 08:04 PM
Status: "RIP Solomon Tekah" (set 7 days ago)
 
1,223 posts, read 580,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Pennsylvania isn't solidly blue, though. Much like Virginia, it is considered a swing state, and can go either way in most elections, depending on who's running and what's the pressing issue (jobs, national security, etc.) that cycle.

Also, Virginia shares much of the same linguistics as both Maryland's Eastern Shore and Delaware's Sussex County, and both areas are quite "Southern" in culture. And while New Jersey and Pennsylvania are not as black as Virginia, Maryland and Delaware are outliers in the "Northeast" in that both states do have substantial black populations similar to much of the South. I don't see how you're quick to dismiss Virginia as being "Mid-Atlantic" (not Northeastern, but Mid-Atlantic) when two of the Mid-Atlantic's constituent members, Delaware and Maryland, have quite fluid regional identities themselves. and Maryland, have quite fluid regional identities themselves.
That's an interesting point in bold. I've been to Wilmington from Philadelphia and I guess that Wilmington shaped my entire views on the state because it's just like Philly. I would have to visit Sussex to take in the vibe....I do see how it could be like VA and the Eastern Shore though. I wonder if the seafood's like MD and VA (it should be)?

To me, having a fluid regional identity is a key trait of the Mid-Atlantic (which is why I have trouble seeing Philly and PA in general as part of the informal Mid-Atlantic because it's 100% Northeastern).
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:01 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,131 posts, read 9,903,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U146 View Post
All of New York in its entirety is more like Pennsylvania than any state in New England.
Umm, people on Long Island, along Lake Champlain and in the Hudson Valley might beg to differ from you. However, I will give you the Catskills (larger cousins to the Poconos) and the Southern Tier.
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:27 AM
 
29,905 posts, read 27,355,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80s_kid View Post
That's an interesting point in bold. I've been to Wilmington from Philadelphia and I guess that Wilmington shaped my entire views on the state because it's just like Philly. I would have to visit Sussex to take in the vibe....I do see how it could be like VA and the Eastern Shore though. I wonder if the seafood's like MD and VA (it should be)?

To me, having a fluid regional identity is a key trait of the Mid-Atlantic (which is why I have trouble seeing Philly and PA in general as part of the informal Mid-Atlantic because it's 100% Northeastern).
Really??? There are similarities of course, but there's such a drastic size difference that prevents me from saying that they are just alike. For one, Wilmington is a LOT slower...like a LOT. Downtown Wilmington on a Sunday afternoon is dead as a doornail, while in Philly, Center City is very vibrant. Overall, Wilmington reminded more of Richmond than Philly although I know that culturally, Wilmington is closer to Philly.
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,512 posts, read 2,971,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80s_kid View Post
That's an interesting point in bold. I've been to Wilmington from Philadelphia and I guess that Wilmington shaped my entire views on the state because it's just like Philly. I would have to visit Sussex to take in the vibe....I do see how it could be like VA and the Eastern Shore though. I wonder if the seafood's like MD and VA (it should be)?

To me, having a fluid regional identity is a key trait of the Mid-Atlantic (which is why I have trouble seeing Philly and PA in general as part of the informal Mid-Atlantic because it's 100% Northeastern).
Yea, you definitely need to visit--outside of the (transient) beach towns, it's like a different world, imo. There's a reason everything below the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal is called "Slower Lower", but it really kicks in once you leave Kent County for Sussex County. Mainly rural outside of the big-box stores around highway 13/113, filled with retirees, very conservative, and Southern in speech ("Punkin Chunkin"). But yea, there's a lot of seafood in the area--it's essentially the same catch served in Maryland, so Old Bay and that whole crab culture is big down there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
Really??? There are similarities of course, but there's such a drastic size difference that prevents me from saying that they are just alike. For one, Wilmington is a LOT slower...like a LOT. Downtown Wilmington on a Sunday afternoon is dead as a doornail, while in Philly, Center City is very vibrant. Overall, Wilmington reminded more of Richmond than Philly although I know that culturally, Wilmington is closer to Philly.
I agree with you that the size difference is quite drastic, even when accounting for the fact that "Wilmington" is a metro of ~700,000 on its own, and that 350,000-400,000 of that is comfortably Wilmington if the city had normal city limits and an equivalent area to Philly. So yea, it's a slower pace, for sure. Not too many cities in this country can compete with Philadelphia for vibrancy.

But unlike Philadelphia, downtown Wilmington (technically also a Center City, but no one calls it that, not even businesses) is not the most vibrant part of the city. Not even close, though it is in the early stages of gentrification. Better areas to gauge the vibrancy of Wilmington proper would be Trolley Square, Little Italy and even the crime-plagued neighborhoods of Hilltop, West Center City, Browntown and the East Side (the latter four 'hoods for nefarious reasons, but hey, it's still vibrant). Still nowhere close to Philly, but I'd wager much livelier than the other satellite cities in the region (Trenton, Camden, Chester, Media, West Chester), excluding Atlantic City.

I haven't been to Richmond, so I won't attempt a comparison, but Wilmington does remind me of a much smaller, more decentralized version of Philadelphia. Dense rowhome neighborhoods, one way narrow streets, leafy suburban areas within/surrounding the city, same demographics (African American, Muslims, Italians, Irish, Puerto Ricans, etc.), predominately brick, old feel, etc. The main big difference, besides the obvious population difference, is that "Wilmington" (which is really everything in New Castle County besides Newark, Bear, Middletown, Delaware City and Glasgow, imo) has a much smaller urban core, and is therefore way more auto-reliant than Philly. From 202 to 13 to Kirkwood Highway, most of the area is highway lined with big box stores and strip malls, with suburban developments/apartment complexes tucked behind/in-between. The only possible equivalent in Philadelphia I can think of would possibly be the far Northeast section, though I'm not too familiar with that area to say that with certainty.

Last edited by qworldorder; 05-18-2016 at 07:04 AM..
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,512 posts, read 2,971,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U146 View Post
Virginia is a Southern state, not a Mid-Atlantic one. Mid-Atlantic refers to lower Northeast....Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland. Virginia is culturally and linguistically Southern unlike the 4 of those and it makes zero sense to group Virginia in with the states to the north of it in any way, shape, or form.
Being Southern and Mid-Atlantic are not mutually exclusive definitions, though--one can belong to both regions, as Virginia does. Mid-Atlantic is more of a geographical grouping than a cultural one (unlike New England), so it makes perfect sense to include Virginia (and even parts of North Carolina, as the United States Geological Survey does). Virginia is solidly Southern (even with NOVA), but it is still Mid-Atlantic--a dialect map really has nothing to do with its placement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-At...cation_map.gif
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:48 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,131 posts, read 9,903,738 times
Reputation: 6423
Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Being Southern and Mid-Atlantic are not mutually exclusive definitions, though--one can belong to both regions, as Virginia does. Mid-Atlantic is more of a geographical grouping than a cultural one (unlike New England), so it makes perfect sense to include Virginia (and even parts of North Carolina, as the United States Geological Survey does). Virginia is solidly Southern (even with NOVA), but it is still Mid-Atlantic--a dialect map really has nothing to do with its placement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-At...cation_map.gif
Good post. With the modern usage of Mid-Atlantic, historically Southern states like Maryland and to a lesser extent Virginia now calling themselves Mid-Atlantic, I have no problem with Virginia being part of the Mid-Atlantic at all. In fact, Virginia is one of my favorite states. So the modern use of the term Mid-Atlantic maybe seen as a connection between parts of the Northeast and parts of the Upper South.

However, there is a fly in the ointment. The state of Virginia officially considers itself to be a South-Atlantic state. This is not a City-Data opinion, this is from the state of Virginia's own website.
https://www.virginia.gov/Connect/About-Virginia

The Commonwealth of Virginia is located in the South Atlantic region of the United States. It was the tenth state to be admitted to the Union on June 25, 1788. Home to approximately eight million residents, Virginia is the twelfth most populous state in the United States. The capital is Richmond, and its most populous city is Virginia Beach.
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