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Old 03-30-2018, 10:52 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,141 posts, read 9,923,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert_from_back_East View Post
People in the Northeast live in towns; people in the Mid-Atlantic live in counties.

Someone from South Brunswick Township, NJ will likely identify as being from South Brunswick, not Middlesex County. Residents of NY and NJ often feel a strong connection to their local towns, similar to their neighbors in New England.

On the other hand, someone from Columbia or Ellicott City, MD will likely identify as being from Howard County, since county rule is stronger and more omnipresent in Maryland and Delaware than in New York or New Jersey.

That's the biggest divisor between the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, IMO.
County government as the primary local government. What you are describing for Maryland and Delaware is more of a Southern thing and not traditionally Mid-Atlantic. Strong county government is a reminder of Maryland's past as a Southern state, because of regardless of what people think of Maryland today, for many years she was Southern. I am less certain about Delaware.

In the Northeast, county government was traditionally more limited (mostly to court functions) because most of the Northeast is incorporated into local governments called towns/townships, cities and boroughs.

- New England has the purest form of local government with strong local governments (towns and cities) and weak county governments (Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont) or no county governments at all (Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts). Vermont has incorporated villages and Connecticut has boroughs inside some of their towns.

- The Upper Mid-Atlantic is more interesting and is a mixture of different types.
--- New York is a buffer state and shares some similarities with both her New England and her Mid-Atlantic neighbors. Moderate county governments alongside moderate local governments called towns and cities. Similar to Vermont, New York has incorporated villages inside her incorporated towns.
-- New Jersey is unique. She has moderate county governments but with every type of local government known to man (jk), cities, boroughs, townships, towns, villages. These days there is not much difference between one type of local government and another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_...cipality_types
--- Pennsylvania has moderate county governments alongside moderate local governments called cities, townships and boroughs. In Pennsylvania a borough is sort of a smaller city.
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Old 03-31-2018, 07:43 AM
 
29,955 posts, read 27,450,839 times
Reputation: 18547
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
This debate is endless because people are resistant to change. I never heard anybody in Albany say they thought they lived in the Mid-Atlantic--amd they don't
Maybe whatever the Mid-Atlantic meant 150-200 years ago, but not the Mid-Atlantic of today...
I don't think it's about being resistant to change per se. Rather, it's about the versatility of concepts, the language used to describe such concepts, and who is ultimately authorized to officially define these concepts. You can see this playing out across a lot of different contexts (e.g., the debate over the "n" word among Blacks) and those who reject contemporary uses of terms that have little to no association with their original/traditional/"official" use often have valid reasons for doing so.

Furthermore, resistance to change is usually due to fear of loss of something regarded as valuable. I don't think anyone would lose much sleep over who rightfully gets to be called mid-Atlantic and who doesn't.
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Old 03-31-2018, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,747,567 times
Reputation: 5379
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
This debate is endless because people are resistant to change. I never heard anybody in Albany say they thought they lived in the Mid-Atlantic--amd they don't
Maybe whatever the Mid-Atlantic meant 150-200 years ago, but not the Mid-Atlantic of today...
Albany; key word. Albany. A city pretty far north with fairly strong connections to western New England.

Down here near the PA border though? Come ask us.
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Old 04-02-2018, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,843,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
Albany; key word. Albany. A city pretty far north with fairly strong connections to western New England.

Down here near the PA border though? Come ask us.
Don't need to; I lived in Elmira which is a skip across the PA state line. I never even heard anybody mention the term Mid-Atlantic and I lived there for two years. If there's a debate along geographical or cultural lines, it's whether that area is more aligned with Western or Central New York...

Binghamton? Nobody is saying they are from the Mid-Atlantic...

@mutiny, I don't gather that many people lose sleep over any of the fruitless debates that happen here; that really only matter here...

I agree that the Mid-Atlantic phrase is one that many people seem to leave little room for versatility...
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Old 04-02-2018, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,747,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Don't need to; I lived in Elmira which is a skip across the PA state line. I never even heard anybody mention the term Mid-Atlantic and I lived there for two years. If there's a debate along geographical or cultural lines, it's whether that area is more aligned with Western or Central New York...

Binghamton? Nobody is saying they are from the Mid-Atlantic...

@mutiny, I don't gather that many people lose sleep over any of the fruitless debates that happen here; that really only matter here...

I agree that the Mid-Atlantic phrase is one that many people seem to leave little room for versatility...
I'm from the Elmira to Watkins area. I literally grew up here. If you ask somebody here if NY is a Mid-Atlantic state, the answer will be yes. This is where I was taught that. I am from here and I say it. I can introduce you to people, also from here, who think so as well.

Your move, two-years hot-shot.
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Old 04-04-2018, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,843,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon View Post
I'm from the Elmira to Watkins area. I literally grew up here. If you ask somebody here if NY is a Mid-Atlantic state, the answer will be yes. This is where I was taught that. I am from here and I say it. I can introduce you to people, also from here, who think so as well.

Your move, two-years hot-shot.
Great. I assume you now want everyone to believe you're the mascot for the Southern Tier?

Or is spokesperson a better term?

Somehow, you being taught that doesn't diminish or nullify that in two years there, I never even heard the phrase Mid-Atlantic....
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:26 AM
 
56,755 posts, read 81,082,761 times
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Yeah, I’ve never heard of NY being referred to as Mid-Atlantic too much. Not saying it hasn’t been associated as such, but it isn’t something I’ve heard people say in regards to where people geographically live. People generally say the Northeast or on a state level, you can have an overlap or be in an area that can be associated with multiple regions. That’s what I usually hear.
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,843,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Yeah, Iíve never heard of NY being referred to as Mid-Atlantic too much. Not saying it hasnít been associated as such, but it isnít something Iíve heard people say in regards to where people geographically live. People generally say the Northeast or on a state level, you can have an overlap or be in an area that can be associated with multiple regions. Thatís what I usually hear.
Lol I'm telling you, I never heard the phrase, not even ONCE. And you know how ingrained/rooted my family is in that part of New York...

But again, I also never heard it anywhere else I've ever been in New York. Not in The City, not in Buffalo, and nowhere in between...

There is more of a debate, when the topic organically arises, as to whether that area is Western or Central New York or tied to either...

What I find most interesting about people who fiercely contest Mid-Atlantic in either way, is that the phrase and concept isn't even really that old. I just did a pretty good Google search and the earliest confirmed written usage of the concept dates to 1893. That was only 125 years ago, which is notable for several reasons:

ēThe concept almost certainly does NOT predate the Civil War;
ēthere were only 44 states in 1893;
ēThe political, social, physical, and moral structure of the United States was incredibly different. Remember, demographically this was a vastly different-looking nation, and slavery had only been outlawed fewer than 30 years prior...

So, when this concept originated, the United States of that era was not the same United States of today (and by today, I'm paraphrasing to mean mid-90s to now)...

It's incredible to me how many people are in denial. The nexus of the modern Mid-Atlantic is centered on the DC-Baltimore metropolis. Point blank, period. There really is no reasonable argument against that. When discussing how far the region extends, the areas that share the most cultural commonalities with DC-Baltimore are most likely to be included....

The fact that there is a traditional definition that includes New York is of minute consequence today. Sure, there are probably New Yorkers somewhere that would align themselves with the Mid-Atlantic. Those persons are nowhere close to being the majority or even a distinct plurality of New Yorkers, which is a direct contrast to DC-Baltimore, urban Virginia (which includes Richmond and Hampton Roads), and probably Delaware and parts of PA and Jersey. Those persons in New York would be a unique minority...

New York City & State are vastly different from the DC-Baltimore region. That Southern Tier region of New York embodies Appalachia to an appreciably greater extent than it would embody the Mid-Atlantic...
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:39 AM
 
29,955 posts, read 27,450,839 times
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But seriously, how many people out there are regularly discussing subregions like that? As long as I've been in the DMV (and South Jersey before that), I've seen "mid-Atlantic" in the names of businesses and things of that nature but I don't recall anybody mentioning the mid-Atlantic in a general conversation. Sometimes I think that we forget that we're nerds when it comes to this type of stuff and 98.7% of the general public couldn't care less.
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,843,955 times
Reputation: 4511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutiny77 View Post
But seriously, how many people out there are regularly discussing subregions like that? As long as I've been in the DMV (and South Jersey before that), I've seen "mid-Atlantic" in the names of businesses and things of that nature but I don't recall anybody mentioning the mid-Atlantic in a general conversation. Sometimes I think that we forget that we're nerds when it comes to this type of stuff and 98.7% of the general public couldn't care less.
That's the point, Mutiny. When topics of geographical identity do come up, almost nobody in New York says Mid-Atlantic. I think we all understand that we habe conversations here that aren't typical of offline conversations. It's that when these conversations do arise, this isn't an identification that New Yorkers tend to, whereas when it does arise in Virginia, there definitely is an identification to a greater extent...
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