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View Poll Results: What states make up the north?
Maine 183 91.96%
New Hampshire 182 91.46%
Vermont 183 91.96%
Massachusetts 179 89.95%
Rhode Island 179 89.95%
Connecticut 179 89.95%
New York 182 91.46%
Pennsylvania 170 85.43%
New Jersey 171 85.93%
Maryland 100 50.25%
Delaware 106 53.27%
West Virginia (even if just in part, specify in comment) 42 21.11%
Ohio 129 64.82%
Indiana 115 57.79%
Michigan 152 76.38%
Illinois 127 63.82%
Wisconsin 150 75.38%
Minnesota 152 76.38%
Iowa 115 57.79%
Missouri 51 25.63%
North Dakota 130 65.33%
South Dakota 122 61.31%
Nebraska 82 41.21%
Kansas 47 23.62%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-28-2011, 02:30 AM
 
2,248 posts, read 6,210,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamBpa View Post
I'm not familiar enough with Louisville to make a good judgment, but is it really that different from Cincinnati and Indianapolis?
Yes, and here's why. Cincinnati is more of an eastern style city, like St. Louis, Baltimore, or Pittsburgh, whereas Indianapolis is more similar to Great Lakes cities like Grand Rapids, Columbus, and Toledo. Louisville is simply a Southern city with Northern undertones. You'd have to spend a lot of time in that area to understand the subtle cultural nuances that really affect the vibe of those cities.

Last edited by Colts; 11-28-2011 at 02:39 AM..
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,232,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colts View Post
Yes, and here's why. Cincinnati is more of an eastern style city, like St. Louis, Baltimore, or Pittsburgh, whereas Indianapolis is more similar to Great Lakes cities like Grand Rapids, Columbus, and Toledo. Louisville is simply a Southern city with Northern undertones. You'd have to spend a lot of time in that area to understand the subtle cultural nuances that really affect the vibe of those cities.
I partially agree with this. The only issue I take is that Columbus is NOT a Great Lakes city. It is over 100 miles south of Lake Erie. That said, I would agree that it's Indianapolis' twin. As far as eastern-style cities go, I'm not sure where that comes in...I've always felt St. Louis and Cincinnati's most similar cities to be Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Indianapolis, and Columbus. They have and had very similar cuisine, industry,and demographics. All suffered losses in population due to the Reverse Migration. Baltimore, while on a similar latitude to these cities, and with a degree of cultural resemblance, is really not Midwestern at all...it is a Northeastern city, with most of its similarities being to D.C. and Philadelphia.

Now for Louisville...what makes this city southern is a number of things...first, its cuisine...I can positively attest that sweet tea was available at most restaurants in this city well before Mickey D's placed it on their menu nationwide, which seemed to prompt sweet tea to be sold in respectful amounts nationwide. Second, it is heavily dominated by Southern Baptists...in rural cases, sometimes I will not lean as heavily on that, but if a city leans toward a certain religion, that speaks volumes, as urban counties tend to have more binding cultures than rural ones from my experience. Third, southern dialect is the rule in Louisville...a native Louisville accent has essentially all or most of the characteristics fitting southern dialect. Phrases like "y'all", "I'm fixin',", the letter I is pronounced "ah", etc. The Kentucky Derby pretty much shows heavy ties to Virginia, and old Southern colonialism. Also, Louisville has gained in population from the Great Migration...compared to St. Louis Cincinnati, and the rest of the Midwest, Louisville is not rusting out or in decline at all. It has been booming. This is very much in line with the patterns of the New South. It's African-American population is actually increasing. Architecture and cuisine also have little to no similarity to the other cities mentioned and much more commonality with Nashville. The last difference is that most people from Louisville consider themselves to be Southern, and are considered Southern by most. This is either the exact opposite, or different with the other cities. I went from thinking Louisville was southern, and had a brief period where i thought it was midwestern, but after attempting to argue my case with some Kentucky natives, realized I didn't have one.

Basically, Kansas City, Indianapolis, St. Louis and Cincinnati are cities on the southern edge of the lower Midwest just prior to where the transition zone to the south starts, and Louisville is a city on the northern edge of the Upper South, just south of where the transition to the north begins. Louisville's most similar cities are Nashville and Richmond. I am going to attempt to draw up a map of this transition zone for all of the U.S.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,232,269 times
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Ok...finally got the map drawn. Some of the lines are slightly wobbly because I used a touchpad to draw the lines, but this was basically the area I had in mind. I made sure to keep the northern boundary below St. Louis, Indianapolis, KC, and Cincinnati, as well as Washington, and to keep it above Louisville and Lexington. This map is also based on years of experience driving between the Southern and Midwestern United States. The blue line is the approximate northern boundary of the transition zone. The red line is the approximate southern boundary. As you will notice, contrary to Adam's claim, the lines I have drawn are really not that crooked. However, in certain places, the transition zone does narrow down due to shorter distance between cities (example: Indianapolis and Louisville are only 110 miles apart...Cincinnati is roughly the same distance from Louisville and Lexington...it is only common sense that the transition zone would grow smaller due to the vast differences between these cities.) Click on the thumbnail for a larger view.
Attached Thumbnails
What states are northern-map_us_outline.gif  
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:23 AM
 
Location: West Tennessee
2,082 posts, read 2,902,942 times
Reputation: 1337
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Ok...finally got the map drawn. Some of the lines are slightly wobbly because I used a touchpad to draw the lines, but this was basically the area I had in mind. I made sure to keep the northern boundary below St. Louis, Indianapolis, KC, and Cincinnati, as well as Washington, and to keep it above Louisville and Lexington. This map is also based on years of experience driving between the Southern and Midwestern United States. The blue line is the approximate northern boundary of the transition zone. The red line is the approximate southern boundary. As you will notice, contrary to Adam's claim, the lines I have drawn are really not that crooked. However, in certain places, the transition zone does narrow down due to shorter distance between cities (example: Indianapolis and Louisville are only 110 miles apart...Cincinnati is roughly the same distance from Louisville and Lexington...it is only common sense that the transition zone would grow smaller due to the vast differences between these cities.) Click on the thumbnail for a larger view.
Pretty good line once again stlouisian . Of course you'll always get the people who want to nitpick so be ready.
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:12 PM
 
2,248 posts, read 6,210,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
I partially agree with this. The only issue I take is that Columbus is NOT a Great Lakes city. It is over 100 miles south of Lake Erie.
It's true that Columbus doesn't have a Great Lake shoreline, but neither does Grand Rapids or Indianapolis or Fort Wayne. Columbus reminds me of those cities more than Louisville or Cincinnati, especially in the built architecture of the city, the flatness, the non-navigable rivers, etc.

Quote:
As far as eastern-style cities go, I'm not sure where that comes in...I've always felt St. Louis and Cincinnati's most similar cities to be Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Indianapolis, and Columbus.
St. Louis reminds me of places like Baltimore and Cincinnati and Pittsburgh: older river cities with tons of brick rowhouses. I could see some similarities with Great Lakes cities, particularly with regards to industrial heritage, but the physical characteristics are just too different.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:00 PM
 
400 posts, read 869,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Now for Louisville...what makes this city southern is a number of things...first, its cuisine...I can positively attest that sweet tea was available at most restaurants in this city well before Mickey D's placed it on their menu nationwide, which seemed to prompt sweet tea to be sold in respectful amounts nationwide. Second, it is heavily dominated by Southern Baptists...in rural cases, sometimes I will not lean as heavily on that, but if a city leans toward a certain religion, that speaks volumes, as urban counties tend to have more binding cultures than rural ones from my experience. Third, southern dialect is the rule in Louisville...a native Louisville accent has essentially all or most of the characteristics fitting southern dialect. Phrases like "y'all", "I'm fixin',", the letter I is pronounced "ah", etc. The Kentucky Derby pretty much shows heavy ties to Virginia, and old Southern colonialism. Also, Louisville has gained in population from the Great Migration...compared to St. Louis Cincinnati, and the rest of the Midwest, Louisville is not rusting out or in decline at all. It has been booming. This is very much in line with the patterns of the New South. It's African-American population is actually increasing. Architecture and cuisine also have little to no similarity to the other cities mentioned and much more commonality with Nashville. The last difference is that most people from Louisville consider themselves to be Southern, and are considered Southern by most. This is either the exact opposite, or different with the other cities. I went from thinking Louisville was southern, and had a brief period where i thought it was midwestern, but after attempting to argue my case with some Kentucky natives, realized I didn't have one.

Basically, Kansas City, Indianapolis, St. Louis and Cincinnati are cities on the southern edge of the lower Midwest just prior to where the transition zone to the south starts, and Louisville is a city on the northern edge of the Upper South, just south of where the transition to the north begins. Louisville's most similar cities are Nashville and Richmond. I am going to attempt to draw up a map of this transition zone for all of the U.S.
Pretty much. That's why when I did my post about the Top 10 Midwest cities, I made a point of saying that I was not including Louisville. Because Louisville is a Southern city and Kentucky is a Southern state. Even though the Louisville metro area contains portions of Indiana, and Indiana is a Midwest state, and even though Louisville is connected to Cincinnati and Indianapolis economically, Louisville is still a Southern city. Louisville is the only major Southern city that is right on the edge of the Midwest and whose metro area includes a lot of area that would typically be classified as being in the Midwest.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:24 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,125,548 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Ok...finally got the map drawn. Some of the lines are slightly wobbly because I used a touchpad to draw the lines, but this was basically the area I had in mind.
Well done, StL!
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:25 PM
 
400 posts, read 869,552 times
Reputation: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Ok...finally got the map drawn. Some of the lines are slightly wobbly because I used a touchpad to draw the lines, but this was basically the area I had in mind. I made sure to keep the northern boundary below St. Louis, Indianapolis, KC, and Cincinnati, as well as Washington, and to keep it above Louisville and Lexington. This map is also based on years of experience driving between the Southern and Midwestern United States. The blue line is the approximate northern boundary of the transition zone. The red line is the approximate southern boundary. As you will notice, contrary to Adam's claim, the lines I have drawn are really not that crooked. However, in certain places, the transition zone does narrow down due to shorter distance between cities (example: Indianapolis and Louisville are only 110 miles apart...Cincinnati is roughly the same distance from Louisville and Lexington...it is only common sense that the transition zone would grow smaller due to the vast differences between these cities.) Click on the thumbnail for a larger view.
I don't disagree with your lines east of the Kansas-Missouri border, but as someone who has lived in Kansas, I can say that the placement of the blue line through the middle of Kansas is incorrect. Once that blue line hits the Kansas-Missouri border, it goes south along the border to the Oklahoma-Kansas border, then continues west along that border. It maybe clips the extreme southeast corner of Kansas, but that's it.

Kansas is pretty similar from north to south. It doesn't have a transition zone in the middle like Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio do. Southern Kansas is very much like northern Kansas, with only slight differences. It's not like Indiana, where the culture changes dramatically as you go south to north within the state.
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Bel Air, California
21,340 posts, read 21,917,974 times
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I know that we Americans are not necessarily known for our geography prowess but, I was hoping that some of the twenty-or-so people that think Pennsylvania is Northern but North Dakota (you know, the one that borders Canada) is not, could explain what their thinking is on that one.

After all, the Southern border of North Dakota if extended eastward, would be somewhere North of Ottawa and more than 270 miles North of the Northern PA border.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:40 PM
 
Location: IN
20,855 posts, read 35,982,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Earth View Post
I don't disagree with your lines east of the Kansas-Missouri border, but as someone who has lived in Kansas, I can say that the placement of the blue line through the middle of Kansas is incorrect. Once that blue line hits the Kansas-Missouri border, it goes south along the border to the Oklahoma-Kansas border, then continues west along that border. It maybe clips the extreme southeast corner of Kansas, but that's it.

Kansas is pretty similar from north to south. It doesn't have a transition zone in the middle like Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio do. Southern Kansas is very much like northern Kansas, with only slight differences. It's not like Indiana, where the culture changes dramatically as you go south to north within the state.
I don't see many similarities at all if you compare Concordia to Winfield.
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