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View Poll Results: What states make up the north?
Maine 183 91.96%
New Hampshire 182 91.46%
Vermont 183 91.96%
Massachusetts 179 89.95%
Rhode Island 179 89.95%
Connecticut 179 89.95%
New York 182 91.46%
Pennsylvania 170 85.43%
New Jersey 171 85.93%
Maryland 100 50.25%
Delaware 106 53.27%
West Virginia (even if just in part, specify in comment) 42 21.11%
Ohio 129 64.82%
Indiana 115 57.79%
Michigan 152 76.38%
Illinois 127 63.82%
Wisconsin 150 75.38%
Minnesota 152 76.38%
Iowa 115 57.79%
Missouri 51 25.63%
North Dakota 130 65.33%
South Dakota 122 61.31%
Nebraska 82 41.21%
Kansas 47 23.62%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-14-2011, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Earth View Post
This is largely NOT true. Kansas and Nebraska are sister states and share very much in common, including the accent. People in Kansas and Nebraska pretty much talk the same. They both have the Midland accent. The true Northern accent, like you hear in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and northern Iowa, is not the dominant accent in Nebraska.

I know people want to think that Nebraska is different from Kansas because it is further north. But both states are very much alike. They are both heavily-Republican, conservative, western, on the periphery of the Midwest, largely rural states dominated by a few regional cities (Kansas City, Omaha, Wichita, Topeka, Lincoln). And they both have the Midland accent.
Nebraska is a bit more "ethnic" though, largely populated with thousands of German, Czech, and some Scandinavian immigrants ( who otherwise went a little further north into the Dakotas, Minnesota and Wisconsin); Kansas, on the other hand, has much less of this, and I have heard a little of a southern/western twang when traveling through southern Kansas, which I never heard in my time in Nebraska ( I also had a parent from Nebraska, BTW)...
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Old 11-14-2011, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smtchll View Post
I dont know about it being geographically Northern because Virginia and Kentucky (almost) go just as far North as Missouri and they're considered Southern.
Geography isn't determined solely by latitude and longitude. And besides, their northern most points are about 100 miles to the south of Missouri's northern most. There are states all over this country, even neighboring each other, which while on the same latitude have completely different culture, weather, and speech patterns. They basically cover most or just above the southern half of Missouri. The Ohio River culturally separates the south from the midwest...where it flows into the Mississippi at Missouri is very far south in the state. That is about the northernmost, give or take 50 miles, extent of 100%, unabashedly southern culture in this state. I have been to both Virginia and Kentucky..much of the Ozarks in Missouri are heavily influenced by both of these states and Tennessee, no question, but are also heavily Midwestern-influenced and very much their own animal. And certainly, their major cities are not like Missouri's at all, save perhaps those in the far southern parts (Springfield, etc.) The far northern parts of Virginia and Kentucky are actually not the South. NOVA is the beginning of the Northeast, and the northern tip of kentucky is in the cincinnati suburbs).
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
There's no evidence to show though that St. Louis gets its accent from from Chicago...there is no arrow pointing from Chicago to St. Louis...it just shows a corridor not specificifying any direction. If you listen to a native St. Louis accent and a native Chicago accent, you'll be in for an uphill battle arguing that one influences the other. There is nothing even remotely similar about their dialects. The Midwest is considered the "North Central United States." Also, if you look at Catholic maps, a significant portion of rural Missouri has counties with 10-15% or more Catholics, which you won't find in the Southern states except for Louisiana (due to the French and creole elements), Florida (due to northern migrants), and Texas (Hispanics). That is just one Southern characteristic. To say that because a place has one modern characteristic that's not representive of a region, it's not part of the region, is ridiculously narrow-minded. The Midland accent covers the central and lower midwest. There is north Midland and south midland, neither of which is considered southern. I agree it's not anywhere near 100% northern, but it is definitely in excess of 50%. Any Midwestern or northeastern state bordering the south (all of the Census Bureau's definition excluding MD and DE in my opinion), is not 100% "northern."
The Northern Cities Vowel Shift corridor from Chi to STL follows I-55 almost exactly. I dont see why it's so hard to believe that a much larger city has some linguistic influence on a nearby smaller city, which it's connected to by an interstate. St. Louis is the Southernmost city to have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Chicago is closer to many other cities with the shift, so of course it spread from Chicago to St. Louis. How could it have spread from South to North? That would mean that it originated in St. Louis and worked its way up to all Northern cities. Unlikely...

Chicago & St. Louis accents sound similar though not completely the same. Chicago has more characteristics of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, St. Louis h

Last edited by Smtchll; 11-14-2011 at 06:41 PM..
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
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Alaska
Washington
Oregon
Idaho
Montana
Wyoming
North Dakota
South Dakota
Nebraska
Minnesota
Iowa
Wisconsin
Illinois
Indiana
Michigan
Ohio
Pennsylvania
New York
New Jersey
Delaware
Vermont
New Hampshire
Maine
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:23 AM
 
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@stlouisan

my previous post messed up when I edited it. Here it is...

The Northern Cities Vowel Shift corridor from Chi to STL follows I-55 almost exactly. I dont see why it's so hard to believe that a much larger city has some linguistic influence on a nearby smaller city, which it's connected to by an interstate. St. Louis is the Southernmost city to have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Chicago is closer to many other cities with the shift, so of course it spread from Chicago to St. Louis. How could it have spread from South to North? That would mean that it originated in St. Louis and worked its way up to all Northern cities. Unlikely...

Chicago & St. Louis accents sound similar though not completely the same. Chicago has more characteristics of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, St. Louis has less characteristics of it. The rest of MO does not have this vowel shift, which makes for a noticeably different accent. I have friends in KC who tell me that STL people sound different. They say "maaam" for "mom" You'd also hear this in Chicago. I've even had people in STL tell me that the rest of MO has a Southern accent. Obviously not true, but it shows that people realize that STL has a different accent from the rest of MO.

There are actually more 10-15%+ Baptist counties in MO than there are 10-15%+ Catholic counties. Even at the Northern border of the state. It's very rare for a Northern state to have that many Baptist counties. It's even more rare than seeing Catholic-dominated counties in the South.




2006 April 26 Is There a God?

And I didnt say that MO was Southern, I said that it isn't Northern. Just because it's not Northern doesn't mean that it's Southern. It's simply Midwestern, similar to Kansas' situation. Looking at the poll, it seems that most people on here agree.

And replying to your last post. Physical geography is about latitude and longitude. I wasn't talking about culture or linguistics, just geography. I was replying to someone that was suggesting that MO is a "long ways" from the South, physically. So I pointed out that Kentucky & Virginia go nearly as far North (about 2/3rds as much) as MO.

Last edited by Smtchll; 11-15-2011 at 12:33 AM..
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,102 posts, read 4,740,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
Alaska
Washington
Oregon
Idaho
Montana
Wyoming

North Dakota
South Dakota
Nebraska
Minnesota
Iowa
Wisconsin
Illinois
Indiana
Michigan
Ohio
Pennsylvania
New York
New Jersey
Delaware
Vermont
New Hampshire
Maine
Those in bold are western states in my opinion. I always considered there to be a north, a south, and a west.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smtchll View Post
The Northern Cities Vowel Shift corridor from Chi to STL follows I-55 almost exactly. I dont see why it's so hard to believe that a much larger city has some linguistic influence on a nearby smaller city, which it's connected to by an interstate. St. Louis is the Southernmost city to have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Chicago is closer to many other cities with the shift, so of course it spread from Chicago to St. Louis. How could it have spread from South to North? That would mean that it originated in St. Louis and worked its way up to all Northern cities. Unlikely...

Chicago & St. Louis accents sound similar though not completely the same. Chicago has more characteristics of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, St. Louis h
I'm not saying any of that...please....I didn't even say it originated in St. Louis. There is no reason however, to suggest that it STARTED in Chicago and worked its way to St. Louis...it is quite possible the two simultaneously evolved. There is no evidence to suggest that this shift began in Chicago however. It may have started even further north than that. And there's no evidence really that shows Chicago adopted it before St. Louis did. There is simply no way to tell.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,230,797 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smtchll View Post
@stlouisan

my previous post messed up when I edited it. Here it is...

The Northern Cities Vowel Shift corridor from Chi to STL follows I-55 almost exactly. I dont see why it's so hard to believe that a much larger city has some linguistic influence on a nearby smaller city, which it's connected to by an interstate. St. Louis is the Southernmost city to have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Chicago is closer to many other cities with the shift, so of course it spread from Chicago to St. Louis. How could it have spread from South to North? That would mean that it originated in St. Louis and worked its way up to all Northern cities. Unlikely...

Chicago & St. Louis accents sound similar though not completely the same. Chicago has more characteristics of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, St. Louis has less characteristics of it. The rest of MO does not have this vowel shift, which makes for a noticeably different accent. I have friends in KC who tell me that STL people sound different. They say "maaam" for "mom" You'd also hear this in Chicago. I've even had people in STL tell me that the rest of MO has a Southern accent. Obviously not true, but it shows that people realize that STL has a different accent from the rest of MO.

There are actually more 10-15%+ Baptist counties in MO than there are 10-15%+ Catholic counties. Even at the Northern border of the state. It's very rare for a Northern state to have that many Baptist counties. It's even more rare than seeing Catholic-dominated counties in the South.




2006 April 26 Is There a God?

And I didnt say that MO was Southern, I said that it isn't Northern. Just because it's not Northern doesn't mean that it's Southern. It's simply Midwestern, similar to Kansas' situation. Looking at the poll, it seems that most people on here agree.

And replying to your last post. Physical geography is about latitude and longitude. I wasn't talking about culture or linguistics, just geography. I was replying to someone that was suggesting that MO is a "long ways" from the South, physically. So I pointed out that Kentucky & Virginia go y nearly as far North (about 2/3rds as much) as MO.
You clearly don't understand anything I'm saying here. And looking at this map, there are very few catholic-dominated counties in the south outside of the anomaly parts I mentioned (LA, TX, and FL). Missouri's counties with a Catholic population contain the major concentration of the state's populations. All you can conclude is that Missouri religiously is mixed. And again, you solely use the religious demographic to infer solely that Missouri can't be considered northern. If Northern with Southern influences doesn't satisfy you, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. Of the counties that have majority Southern Baptist identification, I have found none to be Southern culturally or in terms of speech patterns. I have been to most of these counties, and they are not like what you'd find in the South. Do they have Southern influences? A few. Does this make them southern? not by a long shot. does this make them less northern? Slightly.
If Missouri and Kansas can be decisively grouped with the Midwest, they can be decisively grouped with the "North". You are contradicting yourself by saying otherwise.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,230,797 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smtchll View Post
@stlouisan

my previous post messed up when I edited it. Here it is...

The Northern Cities Vowel Shift corridor from Chi to STL follows I-55 almost exactly. I dont see why it's so hard to believe that a much larger city has some linguistic influence on a nearby smaller city, which it's connected to by an interstate. St. Louis is the Southernmost city to have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Chicago is closer to many other cities with the shift, so of course it spread from Chicago to St. Louis. How could it have spread from South to North? That would mean that it originated in St. Louis and worked its way up to all Northern cities. Unlikely...

Chicago & St. Louis accents sound similar though not completely the same. Chicago has more characteristics of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, St. Louis has less characteristics of it. The rest of MO does not have this vowel shift, which makes for a noticeably different accent. I have friends in KC who tell me that STL people sound different. They say "maaam" for "mom" You'd also hear this in Chicago. I've even had people in STL tell me that the rest of MO has a Southern accent. Obviously not true, but it shows that people realize that STL has a different accent from the rest of MO.

There are actually more 10-15%+ Baptist counties in MO than there are 10-15%+ Catholic counties. Even at the Northern border of the state. It's very rare for a Northern state to have that many Baptist counties. It's even more rare than seeing Catholic-dominated counties in the South.




2006 April 26 Is There a God?

And I didnt say that MO was Southern, I said that it isn't Northern. Just because it's not Northern doesn't mean that it's Southern. It's simply Midwestern, similar to Kansas' situation. Looking at the poll, it seems that most people on here agree.

And replying to your last post. Physical geography is about latitude and longitude. I wasn't talking about culture or linguistics, just geography. I was replying to someone that was suggesting that MO is a "long ways" from the South, physically. So I pointed out that Kentucky & Virginia go y nearly as far North (about 2/3rds as much) as MO.
However, the Catholic counties contain the majority of the state's population. Most of the Baptist counties are very sparsely populated, with the exception of a few of the ones in Southern Missouri. The simple fact Missouri has as many counties as it does with dominant or significant Catholic populations is evidence enough that you can't completely say it's not the north...the best you have is a borderline case for that argument. No other Southern state has so many Catholic counties except the anomaly ones I mentioned. You can't explain away Missouri's Catholic population unlike the others. Besides, I've visited many of these Southern-Baptist dominated counties....other than religion, there's really nothing Southern about them. it makes no sense for you to consider Missouri not the north but the Midwest...the two are one and the same term. Either way, the areas with the most of the state's populations are Catholic. Also, if you listen to a Chicago accent, you'll hear a couple of Canadian influences on the way certain things are pronounced. The o's will be lengthened, for example. In St. Louis, "or" is pronounced "ar", and the Canadian influences are entirely absent. A working class St. Louis accent even adopts a bit of the Missouri twang. I have admitted that of all the states on this list, Missouri and Kansas exhibit the most significant Southern influences. Religion, however, is simply one characteristic trait. Texas has an unusual Catholic population, yet I don't see this as being an argument for it not being southern, because it's simply one trait. Louisiana has a significant Catholic population..yet in every other way it mirrors the south...i've never heard somebody say Louisiana is not the south because of its French and Creole influences. I'll give you Missouri is Northern with Southern influences. I'd even give you central, which would include most of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio, which themselves are not 100% northern either. But I simply cannot say that because it has one or even several minor traits setting it apart from the rest of its region, that it can't still be considered part of its region.

Going by the poll, it appears that Nebraska, Kansas, and Missouri are generally not considered part of the north by most. i guess since these states are more central than anything else is why people don't consider them to be more northern, though Nebraska would clearly fit that picture to me. That's about the only other way I'd say KS and MO don't make the cut from a post-Civil War and post Brown vs. Board standpoint (Indiana is an exception prior Brown vs. Board as well). THat said, it sort of shocks why so many more people would consider Maryland and Delaware to be part of the north when these two states are no more northern than MO or KS. If 44 people voted for those states, MO and KS need a matching number of votes, plain and simple, especially KS.

Last edited by stlouisan; 11-15-2011 at 02:14 AM..
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
I'm not saying any of that...please....I didn't even say it originated in St. Louis. There is no reason however, to suggest that it STARTED in Chicago and worked its way to St. Louis...it is quite possible the two simultaneously evolved. There is no evidence to suggest that this shift began in Chicago however. It may have started even further north than that. And there's no evidence really that shows Chicago adopted it before St. Louis did. There is simply no way to tell.
I didnt say it started in Chicago. I said that it came to St. Louis via Chicago. It clearly started on the East Coast, then made its way to the Great Lakes, then St. Louis. They could have simultaneously evolved, but there's happens to be a nice little "dialect corridor" connecting Chicago to St. Louis, so it makes more sense to assume that it spread from one city to the other rather than simultaneously evolved in both and then neatly connected together. Chicago shows more characteristics of the vowel shift because it's closer to many other cities with the shift, St. Louis shows less characteristics because its only close to one city with the shift, Chicago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
You clearly don't understand anything I'm saying here. And looking at this map, there are very few catholic-dominated counties in the south outside of the anomaly parts I mentioned (LA, TX, and FL). Missouri's counties with a Catholic population contain the major concentration of the state's populations. All you can conclude is that Missouri religiously is mixed. And again, you solely use the religious demographic to infer solely that Missouri can't be considered northern. If Northern with Southern influences doesn't satisfy you, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. Of the counties that have majority Southern Baptist identification, I have found none to be Southern culturally or in terms of speech patterns. I have been to most of these counties, and they are not like what you'd find in the South. Do they have Southern influences? A few. Does this make them southern? not by a long shot. does this make them less northern? Slightly.
If Missouri and Kansas can be decisively grouped with the Midwest, they can be decisively grouped with the "North". You are contradicting yourself by saying otherwise.
the point is, when looking at a religious map, MO looks more out of place in the North than it does in the South. You bringing up religion doesn't help your case of MO being Northern. Yes, there are slightly more Catholics than Southern Baptists in MO (15% vs 14% in the year 2000) The Association of Religion Data Archives | Maps & Reports But you never see such a high percentage of Southern Baptists in the Northern state, although you can see a similar percentage of Catholics in a Southern state. Yes, Texas, Florida, and Louisiana are anomalies, but they're still part of the South regardless. You wont find such anomalies in the North, unless you count MO as a Northern state. No Northern state comes close at all. I didnt bring up the part about religion, you did. I'm merely pointing out that it makes MO seem less Northern.

Again, I'm not trying to argue that MO is a Southern state. And just because it's Midwestern doesn't make it Northern. States West of the Mississippi generally dont count in the Northern/Southern, unless they're so far North or South that they cant be considered the opposite. MO & KS happen to be in the middle, so they dont get labeled as either. Just like CO, UT, NV, and CA dont get labeled as North or South.
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