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View Poll Results: Why do some people view the south as rural and the northeast as urban
Ignorance-They haven't traveled or studied enough to know otherwise. Plus, the media feeds them this belief. 35 71.43%
They've traveled enough, but they allow their prejudices to cloud reality. The media reinforces their prejudice. 14 28.57%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-19-2011, 02:41 PM
 
Location: The City
22,350 posts, read 32,293,681 times
Reputation: 7754

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever View Post
The thing with arguing that a state is more rural and identifying populations as rural verses urban/suburban is that it doesn't take into context the fact that the south's rural landscape is much more settled than other regions of the country.

The west's rural areas are practically uninhabited. Hence, you're going to have more people and a greater percentage of the population who live in urban areas. Places like western states, such as California, are over ninety percent urban because the government owns most undeveloped land, and because much of it is nearly uninhabitable (such as the Mojave). As a result, people live where they can, which is near the urban centers. It is the few parcels available for private developers to develop.

In the northeast, the small size of the region, relative the south, along with the megalopolis and other more isolated cities, coupled with larger county sizes, means that a larger share of the region's population will be considered "urban", even if a lot of the people classified as "urban" live in rural areas themselves.
County size has nothing to do with urban vs rural. Only MSA and CSA. Urbanized area is done at the census block level

And in actuality the Urban vs Rural MSA measurements show that the NE metros have higher proportions of their MSA population among urban places when compared to the Southern metros. This has been calculated many times. (An example is Atlanta with 69% of the MSA population residing in Urban developed space and philadelphia with 89%; Miami is the outlier and only MSA that is 100% urbanized)

Additionally by and large the county sizes in the NE are at worst equivelent in size. If you consider Texas Southern than it is actually the opposite

Also the rural development (or portions developed) are actually if anything moreso populated in the NE than in the South

I continue to fail to understand your points and rationale on this

Last edited by kidphilly; 12-19-2011 at 03:02 PM..
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:01 PM
 
30,076 posts, read 27,615,069 times
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1) Because overall, the South was fairly rural up until the WWII era and beyond.

2) Because the South is a really big region and the most populous metro areas are more spatially separated than in the bulk of the Northeast, which is a smaller region.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:03 PM
 
2,402 posts, read 3,591,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
County size has nothing to do with urban vs rural. Only MSA and CSA. Urbanized area is done at the census block level
Actually, most measures are still at the county level. It is what defines MSAs. Commuting patterns still define metropolitan areas. Metropolitan areas are classified as non-rural. Even counties that contain a principal city that is a micropolitan area are no longer considered rural.

Yes, there are measures for urbanized areas, but it's a separate measure to determine settlement patterns, not used to calculate rural vs. non-rural populations. MSAs, based upon the county, are used for that.

Quote:
And in actuality the Urban vs Rural MSA measurements show that the NE metros have higher proportions of their MSA population among rural places when compared to the Southern metros. This has been calculated many times. (An example is Atlanta with 69% of the MSA population residing in Urban developed space and philadelphia with 89%; Miami is the outlier and only MSA that is 100% urbanized)
This again has to do with MSAs being defined at the county unit according to commuting patterns. Georgia is loaded with counties, 159 in total, second most after Texas. This reality allows metro Atlanta to have about ten counties in the metro area that are generally rural (28 total counties) Since the south's rural areas are generally settled (of course Miami is an exception with protected Everglades land to the west), you're going to have a higher rural population, which when figured according to the percent of the metro area that lives in urban areas according to rural areas, it will be higher. I doubt the 69% figure, however. It is much too low, in my opinion. Where did you get that figure from?

Quote:
Additionally by and large the county sizes in the NE are at worst equivelent in size. If you consider Texas Southern than it is actually the opposite
Equivalent in size? To some states, yes, but not to Georgia. We have the tiniest counties in square mileage.

Quote:
Also the rural development (or portions developed) are actually if anything moreso populated in the NE than in the South
How do you figure that? I've traveled throughout northern New England, and while much of the place is settled, it's downright isolated. The feeling I got was similar to some of the most remote areas of the south, such as you'll find in southeast Georgia on the coastal plain.

Do you have any figures to verify such?

Quote:
I continue to fail to understand your points and rationale on this
It's probably because of a number of things:

1) You're young.
2) You're less traveled. Less Real World Experience.
3) You're less experienced with demography, maps, and topography.
4) You likely classify suburban areas as rural.
5) You like view developed areas as being ultra dense areas, rather than what being developed truly means.

Of course, I could be perceiving your wrongly.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:06 PM
 
Location: New York NY
4,291 posts, read 6,388,082 times
Reputation: 9134
[quote=kidphilly;22187615]
I continue to fail to understand your points and rationale on this[.../quote]


I agree.

StarsandStripes has a bee in his bonnet. He/she asked why the percption persists that so many people think of the South as rural and the Northeast as urban, and people have given reasons for that perception, as well as reasons why it is wrong, myself included. And SandS continues to argue. Word: You can argue facts. You can't argue perceptions. You can discuss them, but you can't 'prove' someone's perception of someting right or wrong.

Peace out.

Last edited by citylove101; 12-19-2011 at 03:20 PM..
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:11 PM
 
Location: The City
22,350 posts, read 32,293,681 times
Reputation: 7754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever View Post
Actually, most measures are still at the county level. It is what defines MSAs. Commuting patterns still define metropolitan areas. Metropolitan areas are classified as non-rural. Even counties that contain a principal city that is a micropolitan area are no longer considered rural.

Yes, there are measures for urbanized areas, but it's a separate measure to determine settlement patterns, not used to calculate rural vs. non-rural populations. MSAs, based upon the county, are used for that.



This again has to do with MSAs being defined at the county unit according to commuting patterns. Georgia is loaded with counties, 159 in total, second most after Texas. This reality allows metro Atlanta to have about ten counties in the metro area that are generally rural (28 total counties) Since the south's rural areas are generally settled (of course Miami is an exception with protected Everglades land to the west), you're going to have a higher rural population, which when figured according to the percent of the metro area that lives in urban areas according to rural areas, it will be higher. I doubt the 69% figure, however. It is much too low, in my opinion. Where did you get that figure from?



Equivalent in size? To some states, yes, but not to Georgia. We have the tiniest counties in square mileage.



How do you figure that? I've traveled throughout northern New England, and while much of the place is settled, it's downright isolated. The feeling I got was similar to some of the most remote areas of the south, such as you'll find in southeast Georgia on the coastal plain.

Do you have any figures to verify such?



It's probably because of a number of things:

1) You're young.
2) You're less traveled. Less Real World Experience.
3) You're less experienced with demography, maps, and topography.
4) You likely classify suburban areas as rural.
5) You like view developed areas as being ultra dense areas, rather than what being developed truly means.

Of course, I could be perceiving your wrongly.
The US Census

On your county sizes, OK GA is small not all Southern states are as small, also many NE counties are as small or smaller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars&StripesForever View Post
How do you figure that? I've traveled throughout northern New England, and while much of the place is settled, it's downright isolated. The feeling I got was similar to some of the most remote areas of the south, such as you'll find in southeast Georgia on the coastal plain.

Do you have any figures to verify such?



It's probably because of a number of things:

1) You're young.
2) You're less traveled. Less Real World Experience.
3) You're less experienced with demography, maps, and topography.
4) You likely classify suburban areas as rural.
5) You like view developed areas as being ultra dense areas, rather than what being developed truly means.

Of course, I could be perceiving your wrongly.
Yes you ABSOLUTELY are!

On the facts - search, you will probably find many links I have posted, calculated, provided presentation and documnetation for.

Start with CD and maybe even try google

I absolutely know the difference between urban, suburban, and rural

Again prior to making such assetrions, especially in print I suggest YOU do some research

If you want to know my demographics, there is a thread on this board I started with those specs. I started to better understand the youthful viewpoint that I see promoligated on here. As far as my travels, I absolutely only pass judgement on places where I have experience; and typically a lot of experience
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:17 PM
 
30,076 posts, read 27,615,069 times
Reputation: 18658
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
The bolded part is actually incorrect. While it is true that Charlotte has a larger population than Atlanta city proper (and larger than DC, Miami, Boston) it is not denser than Atlanta. Never has been, never will be.
You can't say it "never will be." Given Charlotte's large land area, I don't think it's probable but you can't say it won't be at some point in the future with absolute certainty.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,509 posts, read 28,262,787 times
Reputation: 7599
Lol, I guess, Cairo, Babylon, Tokyo, London, etc were not big cities before they got subways, even though they had millions of people.

A city is where commerce was centered. Where farmers met to sell goods, and people offered services. It has nothing to do with modern, northeastern nonsense about subways.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,615 posts, read 54,993,387 times
Reputation: 67296
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm02 View Post
Neither of the two poll choices. It may be because the 7 densest states (and 8 of the Top 10) are in the NE based on the 2010 US census while only 1 of the Top 10 (No. 8 Florida) is in the south:

1. New Jersey: 1196 people/sq mi
2. Rhode Island: 1018
3. Massachusetts: 839
4. Connecticut: 738
5. Maryland: 595
6. Delaware: 461
7. New York: 411
8. Florida: 351
9. Pennsylvania: 284
10. Ohio: 282
That still doesn't explain everything. Look at New York. Except for the NYC metro area, I'd describe New York as rural. Yes, I know there are some other good-sized cities upstate, but when you think of New York state, you think of farmland and the Adirondacks.

I think of Pennsylvania as green rolling hills and farms, too.

Actually, I don't think of NJ, my home state as urban, either. Ten minutes to the east of me is the Atlantic ocean. Ten minutes to the west of me are horse farms and peach orchards.

It's all a matter of what you know more than statistics.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:23 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
148 posts, read 92,581 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm02 View Post
Neither of the two poll choices. It may be because the 7 densest states (and 8 of the Top 10) are in the NE based on the 2010 US census while only 1 of the Top 10 (No. 8 Florida) is in the south:

1. New Jersey: 1196 people/sq mi
2. Rhode Island: 1018
3. Massachusetts: 839
4. Connecticut: 738
5. Maryland: 595
6. Delaware: 461
7. New York: 411
8. Florida: 351
9. Pennsylvania: 284
10. Ohio: 282

The funny part to this is, while NJ is the densest state, I am within a half hour drive of many rural areas in all directions. Still a LOT of farmland around me. Mountains not too far to the north. Etc. Fortunately, my area is not at all densely populated...
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Chicago (from pittsburgh)
3,700 posts, read 4,550,141 times
Reputation: 2911
Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
modern, northeastern nonsense about subways.
the south. there ya go.
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