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Old 01-01-2012, 04:26 AM
 
Location: New Orleans
2,311 posts, read 4,236,549 times
Reputation: 1430

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
Sorta. I kinda edited the Hitchens quote, but the idea is the same. Hitchens said ,

You should respect opinions that you dont agree with when they are presented in a rational way, although you may disagree. That is the problem with US society these days. Instead of thoughtful discussion we have hostility to different opinions and it is leading to a big rift in this country. Cant we find a middle ground?
I really don't think this is the appropriate venue to ask "why can't we all get along?"(Hitchens also, in "why women aren't funny", called warfare the male equivalent of childbirth).

Cities started very densely packed when people had to walk everywhere. Then came horses, streetcars, automobiles.... I just happen to believe that the modern idea of a suburb is here to stay.
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Old 01-01-2012, 04:40 AM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,390,893 times
Reputation: 1768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neworleansisprettygood View Post
I really don't think this is the appropriate venue to ask "why can't we all get along?"(Hitchens also, in "why women aren't funny", called warfare the male equivalent of childbirth).

Cities started very densely packed when people had to walk everywhere. Then came horses, streetcars, automobiles.... I just happen to believe that the modern idea of a suburb is here to stay.
Cities are getting more densely packed along with suburbs. Im not saying all suburbs are in decline, just sprawl. Even sprawly suburbs can make changes to stop the decline, but often refuse to do so. Over reliance on the car is not a good thing, especially as gas continues to decrease and gets more expensive.

The suburbs didnt develop overnight. They formed over a few decades after the car. 2006 marked the reversal of the suburb. It will be a slow process that will take decades, but unless some drastic change occurs suburbs will experience a decline similar to the way cities did in the 50-80s.

Of course some huge event could change this. Lets say teleportation out of your home becomes possible, or flying cars that run on cheap batteries. Such an event is improbable.

Even if a cheap replacement to gas is found sprawl will still decline. In many cases cities have grown out as far as they can and will start to build up. Some cities havent grown out as far as they can, but most have.

Also, suburbs take massive resources and infrastructure to maintain. The resources are dwinling, as one poster pointed out with Texas, and the federal and state governments are not building new infrastructure, and doing a bad job of maintaining existing infrastructure.

What people dont realize is that suburbs are massively subsidized by the government and a huge drain on this country. Under true market conditions they would not have formed as they did. Also, under better planning they would not have formed as they did.

The American suburb is often a form of corporate welfare or a redistribution of wealth from the taxpayer to private businesses. They were unsustainable 60 years ago, and now we are paying the price.
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
297 posts, read 503,121 times
Reputation: 821
I love how these "Suburbs Suck" threads always have someone saying

Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
I dont make generalizations like you
and then in the next paragraph say

Quote:
The suburbs are infamous for alienation, obesity, spiritual/cultural/personal emptiness, and shallowness. Of course not every surbanite experiences these things, but a good number do.
and earlier they had said

Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
White people fled to suburbs so they didnt have to live next to black people.

Now that white people are moving back into cities and forcing black people into suburbs, more are moving into cities.
I suppose they must think that because they say "not everyone is like this" that means that they didn't make a broad sweeping generalization.

I'm not saying that every defender of urban lifestyle and hater of suburban lifestyle is a pompous hypocrite, but the vast majority are.
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:14 AM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,390,893 times
Reputation: 1768
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim2none View Post
I love how these "Suburbs Suck" threads always have someone saying



and then in the next paragraph say

and earlier they had said



I suppose they must think that because they say "not everyone is like this" that means that they didn't make a broad sweeping generalization.

I'm not saying that every defender of urban lifestyle and hater of suburban lifestyle is a pompous hypocrite, but the vast majority are.
Again, those examples dont pertain to everyone. White flight is well known. Not every white person went to the suburbs to flee black people, but that was the initial event that really led to suburban growth in the 50s and 60s. Today it is not so much of a problem, but it was a big factor in their success.

Also, suburbs are known for alienation, waste, obesity, etc. That doesnt mean every person in the suburb experiences these things. I even stated that in my comment, but it seems as if you lack the reading comprehension to understand this.

No generalizations were made on my part.

However, I resort to facts while it seems as if you are resorting to personal attacks against me. You can call me pompous and a hypocrite all you like, but it doesnt change the truth of the matter. It is just an excuse for you to remain ignorant. I urge you to use more critical thinking in the future and to try and stay on topic. If you want to refute what I am saying please stay on topic and make an actual argument instead of resorting to straw man and ad hominem.

Your logical fallacies destroy your credibility, and your argument, while strengthening mine. So thank you.
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:46 AM
 
Location: New Orleans
2,311 posts, read 4,236,549 times
Reputation: 1430
Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
Again, those examples dont pertain to everyone. White flight is well known. Not every white person went to the suburbs to flee black people, but that was the initial event that really led to suburban growth in the 50s and 60s. Today it is not so much of a problem, but it was a big factor in their success.

Also, suburbs are known for alienation, waste, obesity, etc. That doesnt mean every person in the suburb experiences these things. I even stated that in my comment, but it seems as if you lack the reading comprehension to understand this.

No generalizations were made on my part.

However, I resort to facts while it seems as if you are resorting to personal attacks against me. You can call me pompous and a hypocrite all you like, but it doesnt change the truth of the matter. It is just an excuse for you to remain ignorant. I urge you to use more critical thinking in the future and to try and stay on topic. If you want to refute what I am saying please stay on topic and make an actual argument instead of resorting to straw man and ad hominem.

Your logical fallacies destroy your credibility, and your argument, while strengthening mine. So thank you.
Okay, then while we're on the subject of logical fallacies, do you have any data to back up your own assertions? Such as your claim that the traditional American suburb began its decline in 2006?
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Old 01-01-2012, 06:02 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
297 posts, read 503,121 times
Reputation: 821
Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
No generalizations were made on my part.
Seriously? You really think that? That is the same as me saying that I didn't personally attack you because I said

Quote:
I'm not saying that every defender of urban lifestyle and hater of suburban lifestyle is a pompous hypocrite
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:30 AM
 
998 posts, read 1,040,818 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
White people fled to suburbs so they didnt have to live next to black people.

Now that white people are moving back into cities and forcing black people into suburbs, more are moving into cities.

I guess the lesson is that some people are racist?
Racist laws is the leading cause. People should be hired & judged by their skills, knowledge, criminal record & credit score, not RACE. Look at the mess the CRA & GSE's "Affirmative Action Lending" created in our financial system & housing.

"Affirmative Action" is a major factor of "White Flight". Working for stupid "Quota Bosses" just plain sucks, cost many jobs & damaged many companies. Not to mention the degraded public services, school system & utilities. Most inner city school systems have lost their accreditation while the ones in the suburbs rock. Families can't afford decent private schools in the city while still paying taxes for the worthless public ones, so they left. Only single people are drawn to the cities until they have kids & then they look for the exit.

Last edited by KrazeeKrewe; 01-01-2012 at 11:39 AM..
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:23 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,390,893 times
Reputation: 1768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neworleansisprettygood View Post
Okay, then while we're on the subject of logical fallacies, do you have any data to back up your own assertions? Such as your claim that the traditional American suburb began its decline in 2006?
Yes, I do.

Here are some interesting articles I encourage you to read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/op...ge-suburb.html

The return of the cities | Entangled States

United States housing bubble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Calitics:: The End of Sprawl? Home Prices Collapse in Suburbs

American exurbs are dying, is America?

Right now it is not real apparent because it just started, and like I said certain events could reverse. However, there is evidence if things continue like they are the sprawl will decline.
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:25 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,390,893 times
Reputation: 1768
Quote:
Originally Posted by slim2none View Post
Seriously? You really think that? That is the same as me saying that I didn't personally attack you because I said
Again, you dont address the actual topic, but go off in this unrelated tangent. If you have something to actually contribute to the topic of this discussion please participate.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:49 AM
 
1,953 posts, read 3,263,465 times
Reputation: 1087
This country is going to have 400 million people within the next 50-100 years.

Millions of people will live in cities. Millions of people will live in suburbs. Both will succeed, because they have to - all those people need places to live.

Both sides arguing that the other will die off are wrong.
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