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Old 01-08-2012, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryson662001 View Post
I know but it's true. Go figure. That's why there is so much confusion. Folks who don't know the definition tend to take it literally and then call a place like Phoenix urban sprawl when really it doesn't meet the criteria at all. The northeast cities are really the best examples of sprawl as well as Washington/Baltimore and Atlanta.
Of course the northeast metros have "gaps". That's because they encompass they encompass a lot of centuries-old towns that function somewhat independently!
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Upper East Side of Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geography Freak View Post
Which is the least sprawly metro of a decent size in the country? By this I basically mean the place where there is less sprawly development between city and farmland/woodland.
Seattle
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,509 posts, read 28,157,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_cat View Post
I don't know, I can see the plus side. I live in Chicago and it would be nice if we had a few more patches of "nature" in town.
It sounds good in theory, but most often they don't look very pretty. some are cow pastures with scattered trees.

we do have many many parks. over 400 of them, but its the eyesore private land thats the problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowlane3 View Post
You will eventually. Have you not heard of this enormous project?

Millennium Reserve : Calumet Core Initiative
yeah I have seen that, that is awesome.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryson662001 View Post
I agree that Phoenix has less sprawl then most cities, again probably because of the water supply. While most development is single family houses the lots are small and empty space between developments is minimal. At the edge development stops abruptly and wilderness begins.
You're exactly correct.

I sometimes wonder if people have even been those locations. Phoenix is densely populated, as is southern California, Las Vegas, and all southwestern areas. With Phoenix, once development stops, it stops. Nothing in the east compares.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
18,509 posts, read 28,157,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryson662001 View Post
I know but it's true. Go figure. That's why there is so much confusion. Folks who don't know the definition tend to take it literally and then call a place like Phoenix urban sprawl when really it doesn't meet the criteria at all. The northeast cities are really the best examples of sprawl as well as Washington/Baltimore and Atlanta.
In terms of urban development judged by density of urban areas California kicks but:

Los Angeles- 7000ppsm
The Bay- 6000ppsm
New York- 5300 ppsm (largely due to the immense density of the core)
New Orleans 5000 ppsm
Las Vegas 4600 ppsm
Miami 4400 ppsm
Denver 4000 ppsm
Chicago 3900 ppsm
Sacramento 3800 ppsm
Phoenix 3600 ppsm
San Diego 3400 ppsm
DC 3400 ppsm
Portland 3300 ppsm
Detroit 3100 ppsm
Baltimore 3000 ppsm
Houston 3000 ppsm
DFW 2950 ppsm
Philadelphia 2900 ppsm

Columbus, Austin, Clevelaand Milwaukee, Minneapolis St paul, Buffalo, Virginia Beach, Tampa, Orlando, St Louis, Memphis, Providence, kansas City all come next before :

Boston- 2300 ppsm

Then comes Cinci, Indianapolis, Jacksonville then
Pittsburgh-2000 ppsm
Atlanta at 1700 ppsm

There are no major urban area that has a lower density than ATL, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, Indianapolis and Cincinnati so I would say that these have the most gaps. I know ATL is heavily treed, so is Pittsburgh.

Boston and Philly are really low, especially since they have such dense cores, so their gaps probably rival ATL too.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
even though the development isn't stretched to cover the vast land areas of the metro, the development style is still a high percentage of single family homes though.

the developed areas may be smaller, but the development style is still sprawly

Phoenix 515 sq miles at 3000ppsm
Mesa 135 sq miles at 3500 ppsm
Gilbert 75 sq miles at 2800 ppsm
Tempe 40 sq miles at 4000 ppsm
Scotsdale 135 sq miles at 1300 ppsm

the development is just as sprawly as the rest of the sunbelt
There isn't a development style known as "sprawly". There are patterns of development. Phoenix is fairly dense and suburban. That's not "Sprawly". While the suburban development goes on for many miles, it isn't the case of many areas of undeveloped land. The land is fairly developed, compact, and dense, not patchy like you'd see in the east. You'd really need to see this from an airplane to understand it. Furthermore, once development ends, it ends. Nothing but uninhabited desert.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:50 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,143,293 times
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Austin Contrarian: Density calculations for U.S. urbanized areas, weighted by census tract

This is basically the average density by which people reside within their areas. Meaning the mod point of density by which people reside. While not the whole story it does gove a better aprxomation for density; and even sprawl. While NYC has sprawl its sprawl is mitagated significantly by those living in more dense areas.


Also before any screams this is 2000 data, based on 2010 data crunched already the 2010 density is lower for every place suggesting continued expanse of sprawl everywhere.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:53 PM
 
Location: The City
22,331 posts, read 32,143,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HtownLove View Post
In terms of urban development judged by density of urban areas California kicks but:

Los Angeles- 7000ppsm
The Bay- 6000ppsm
New York- 5300 ppsm (largely due to the immense density of the core)
New Orleans 5000 ppsm
Las Vegas 4600 ppsm
Miami 4400 ppsm
Denver 4000 ppsm
Chicago 3900 ppsm
Sacramento 3800 ppsm
Phoenix 3600 ppsm
San Diego 3400 ppsm
DC 3400 ppsm
Portland 3300 ppsm
Detroit 3100 ppsm
Baltimore 3000 ppsm
Houston 3000 ppsm
DFW 2950 ppsm
Philadelphia 2900 ppsm

Columbus, Austin, Clevelaand Milwaukee, Minneapolis St paul, Buffalo, Virginia Beach, Tampa, Orlando, St Louis, Memphis, Providence, kansas City all come next before :

Boston- 2300 ppsm

Then comes Cinci, Indianapolis, Jacksonville then
Pittsburgh-2000 ppsm
Atlanta at 1700 ppsm

There are no major urban area that has a lower density than ATL, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, Indianapolis and Cincinnati so I would say that these have the most gaps. I know ATL is heavily treed, so is Pittsburgh.

Boston and Philly are really low, especially since they have such dense cores, so their gaps probably rival ATL too.
You do realize these estimates include all the preserved land which will be open forever in many of these areas. The above post is far more relevant as development style and use of the actual land. While the UA of Houston is somewhat consistent in development it is of very low density accross the metro; menaing people actually reside in low density or use of the land. See above as this takes into account how the land is actually used. Open space is a good thing when land is more effeciently used. Hosuton is not an example of effecient use.
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,918 posts, read 3,632,650 times
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I'm not sure that we all agree what sprawl is. For me it's pretty close to the wikipedia definition posted on page 2. Sprawl is when a metropolitan area has development that skips over large parts of land and the development isn't continuous. There are many good examples of sprawl in the sunbelt, but the northeast and midwest aren't that much better. Somehow on citydata having a dense core has come to mean that the metro doesn't sprawl which isn't what sprawl means.

The metro that sprawls the least is probably Los Angeles. It's relatively high density that goes on forever (that's not sprawl, that's just big) which is usually only broken by natural barriers. Pretty much any other urbanized area in the US would be smaller if it had the density of Los Angeles' urbanized area.
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,918 posts, read 3,632,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
This is basically the average density by which people reside within their areas. Meaning the mod point of density by which people reside. While not the whole story it does gove a better aprxomation for density; and even sprawl. While NYC has sprawl its sprawl is mitagated significantly by those living in more dense areas.
None of that really has anything to do with sprawl imo. If an area sprawls (develops in skips and stops with relatively low density) it can't be "mitigated" by having a dense core. What that chart shows is that in places like NYC most people don't live in the sprawly areas. Those areas are still there however so what it shows is that NYC in reality sprawls quite a bit given that the core is so dense.
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