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Old 04-08-2012, 08:17 PM
 
Location: IN
20,866 posts, read 36,011,334 times
Reputation: 13314

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omahahonors View Post
You know what Ben.. I was wrong in that statement. I have visited Minneapollis and it is more like KC than Milwaukee. Sometimes the sheer size of Minneapolis is deceiving. Minneapolis also seems to interact with cities from the plains than it does from cities from the east from both a business and social standpoint. I've always known this, but I sometimes write this off as heresy.

That said, the great plains culture can be drawn from a line beginning at minneapolis, through Des moines - Ames IA, through Columbia MO and curving back to joplin MO (skipping Springfield as it is much more southern than gp) then to northwest AR. It extends down into northeast texas and hits the 'great wall of southern'. This line can be extended all the way to the rockies to form the great plains cities.

Dallas serves as the Chicago of the great plains. List of cities included:

Dallas,
Minneapolis,
Denver,
Fort Collins,
Kansas City,
Oklahoma City,
Tulsa,
Omaha - Lincoln,
Des Moines - Ames,
Wichita KS,
Fayetteville AR,
Sioux Falls, SD
Fargo, ND

Obviously there are micro-regions in here too as no region is 100% alike. Such as the Dallas, OKC, Tulsa and especially Fayetteville regions have an aspect of them that is a bit southern while KC, Omaha, Des moines and Minneapolis doesn't but replaces those aspects with a bit of a midwestern flavor. It is true that Denver and Fort Collins are in the plains on the front range, but their layout and culture screems great plains except for what makes them different is a bit of the intermountain culture not present in the other cities. All of these cities have a great similarities with each other - more so than they do with other regions which forms the great plains region (exact boundaries undefined, but the cities included really are not debatable).

the cities that scream great plains culture the most are: Omaha, Des Moines, Sioux Falls, Columbia, Kansas City, Tulsa, Oklahoma City and Wichita. The rest are very similar with a slightly more variance.
Columbia? Really??? I think it has the least in common with the others in the group. It is at the southern edge of the Midwest and has a distinct Ozarks influence with more rugged wooded topography that the other places are definitely lacking in. It is also a college town and doesn't fit in demographically with the others.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,235,722 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Columbia? Really??? I think it has the least in common with the others in the group. It is at the southern edge of the Midwest and has a distinct Ozarks influence with more rugged wooded topography that the other places are definitely lacking in. It is also a college town and doesn't fit in demographically with the others.
I agree and disagree. Columbia is definitely not the Great Plains, but as far as being on the southern edge of the Midwest, that's questionable. Below Jeff City, the transition zone starts...the true south lies roughly 100 miles below Columbia. So while it may have some southern influences, it's still identifiably Midwestern. As far as Ozark influences go, the Ozarks, at least starting around Springfield and going north, have both Midwestern and Southern characteristics. Similar culture can be found in southern Kansas, southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and parts of Southern Ohio, especially S/E Ohio.

As far as Fayetteville, AR goes, that's definitely not the Great Plains. And I would never culturally group Denver, Tulsa, or Oklahoma City in with the rest of those for any reason other than being in the Great Plains...technically, Denver is literally right where the Rockies and Plains meet.

As far as regions go, the Great Plains don't really function as a single unit. Oklahoma and Texas grow completely different crops and have very different economies, industries, and demographics compared to Kansas, Nebraska, and the Dakotas. These four states I feel fit in best with the rest of the Midwest.

I can't really say that anything about Texas or Oklahoma reminded me of the KS, NE, SD, and ND. The people, the climate, culture, the cities...nothing.
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Old 04-08-2012, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,235,722 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Missouri entered the union as a slave state, and you are telling me that the south doesn't start until you are nearly in Arkansas? In the 1950s, Hannibal, 50 miles from the Iowa line, was a fully segregated city. Nearly all settlement of Missouri in the 19th century came up from the South. To this day, the towns north of Kansas City are sundown towns, clinging to their segregationist roots.

I've lived in four different towns in Missouri and I never had a sense that I was in the Midwest. My dad grew up in Missouri, and living in the Midwest, he was a fish out of water. I'm not just making this up. Mark Twain called Missouri a Southwestern state, even Hannibal. There may be a lot of people there who don't want to be called southern, but they are. Or else they came from the Midwest and brought the Midwest along with them.
Wow...your age and ignorance continue to burn through your posts.

Missouri may have been a slave state, but outside of central and far S/E MO its economy didn't dependent on it. It sent many more troops to the Union than to the Confederacy, and it never legally seceded. This comes from fine print that I've read going back ten years. And the Missouri Mark Twain grew up in ceased to exist after the Civil War...southern crops were all but banished to the bootheel and the southeast corner of the state, and many of the southern settlers left the state, never to return. Not to mention, Missouri benefited from the Great Migration.

Then I guess according to a UNC survey, 77% of Missourians are in denial
Linguistic maps place the southern accent below Lebanon...I have relatives in South Carolina and Louisiana...I am not in denial of being southern...nothing about where I live is southern. I've been to every southern state, (excluding MD and De, which are mid-atlantic from a modern standpoint). Culturally, most of Missouri does not fit in very well with the south. My family has routes in Southwest Missouri going back over 100 years. You seem to think because you are older, me be younger makes me uneducated? No...what I am saying is that no part of Missouri is culturally and linguistically undeniably southern except in the southern parts. It IS possible for states to radically change their courses....Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware are all prime examples.

And to segregation, I've been to these towns north of Kansas City, and I didn't sense any Jim Crow or racism. As far as compared to other Midwest states, Indiana was extraordinarly supportive of the Klan, even putting one in office. Indianapolis was segregated into the late 1940s. Brown vs. Board is proof positive Kansas was also engaging in segregation. Missouri didn't legalize any segregation except those in public schooling, but anywhere in this country, integration was not heavily enforced until after Brown vs. Board. There were discrimination lawsuits popping up all over the country, from Michigan to New Mexico. All you have to do is research.
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,235,722 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post
You are forgetting St Louis. It's late-19th century settlement came largely from Germany, Ireland and Italy. While it's true their popular port of entry was New Orleans, they were not Southerners.
Much of Central Missouri, particularly the Missouri Rhineland, was settled by Germans and Italians...and Northern settlers combined with the foreigners collectively outnumbered the southerners by the time of the Civil War. St. Louis actually voted for Lincoln in the 1861 election, the only place in Missouri to do so. The rest of the state voted for Douglas, which only New Jersey did as well. People seem to forget that many of the Southerners that settled Missouri left during the Civil War, and that this caused a big shift in its demographics. Southern crops are all but gone from the state, banished only to a tiny portion of far S/E MO. Southern influences are still present, but they for the most part are not any stronger than anywhere else in the lower Midwest. As to jtur, this is pretty solid evidence that my theory of the south in Missouri is accurate...this map is based on multiple dialect studies...you can't claim it to be fabricated because it's cited from 3 different sources.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...EnglishMap.jpg
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Old 04-08-2012, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,235,722 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Around View Post
What's a "yellow plate stoplight"? I used to live in Milwaukee and have no idea what this is.
I think he's talking about ones that don't have the black reflectors....that's a ridiculous classification anyway...all stoplights looked like that at one time or another. However, it's true that the east tends to feature them more, as well as the states east of the Mississippi (with the exceptions of Illinois and Kentucky). Many of the original stoplights in the east are still operating.
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,235,722 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Missouri entered the union as a slave state, and you are telling me that the south doesn't start until you are nearly in Arkansas? In the 1950s, Hannibal, 50 miles from the Iowa line, was a fully segregated city. Nearly all settlement of Missouri in the 19th century came up from the South. To this day, the towns north of Kansas City are sundown towns, clinging to their segregationist roots.

I've lived in four different towns in Missouri and I never had a sense that I was in the Midwest. My dad grew up in Missouri, and living in the Midwest, he was a fish out of water. I'm not just making this up. Mark Twain called Missouri a Southwestern state, even Hannibal. There may be a lot of people there who don't want to be called southern, but they are. Or else they came from the Midwest and brought the Midwest along with them.
Good for your dad...my family has roots in Missouri too, and they fit right in, at least while they were still living in Missouri. As far as the lower Midwest is concerned, i doubt your dad stood out that much, unless he was from the far southern part of the state.
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:26 AM
 
Location: West Tennessee
2,082 posts, read 2,906,115 times
Reputation: 1337
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Much of Central Missouri, particularly the Missouri Rhineland, was settled by Germans and Italians...and Northern settlers combined with the foreigners collectively outnumbered the southerners by the time of the Civil War. St. Louis actually voted for Lincoln in the 1861 election, the only place in Missouri to do so. The rest of the state voted for Douglas, which only New Jersey did as well. People seem to forget that many of the Southerners that settled Missouri left during the Civil War, and that this caused a big shift in its demographics. Southern crops are all but gone from the state, banished only to a tiny portion of far S/E MO. Southern influences are still present, but they for the most part are not any stronger than anywhere else in the lower Midwest. As to jtur, this is pretty solid evidence that my theory of the south in Missouri is accurate...this map is based on multiple dialect studies...you can't claim it to be fabricated because it's cited from 3 different sources.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...EnglishMap.jpg
Speaking of crops:
http://www.usarice.com/doclib/188/219/3679.PDF
Link for rice crop. This shows what counties grow rice in Missouri. Far SE part of the state.

Cotton's Economic Impact (World of Cotton)- National Cotton Council
Map for cotton production. Much of the bootheel outside of Dunklin County has switched to rice so the numbers aren't as high as they used to be. Once again, far Southeast part of the state.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:49 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,136,223 times
Reputation: 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
Most Texans from my experience welcome the idea of being labeled Southern, as do many Oklahomans. (TexasReb where are you?) Anybody who has ever been to Oklahoma or Texas should know that neither of these states should be included in the Midwest culturally, demographically, linguistically, or industrially.
I just got back into town, StLouisan, and am trying to catch up in reading all the posts! LOL

You and Bass&Catfish have done a great job of taking care of business and refuting some common misconceptions! Proud to be friends with both y'all!

Anyway, I am still reading over a bit, and selecting a few posts to reply to. In the meantime, here is that survey that you referred to earlier (along with a press-release describing it).

************************************************** *

WHERE IS THE SOUTH?

The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.

Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.

It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.

--John Shelton Reed

***

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16)

**************************************
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:07 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,136,223 times
Reputation: 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
The "great plains" region is more accurate to describe the western parts of Oklahoma, Kansas, eastern Colorado, most of South Dakota, some and much of west Texas rather than to try to lump those sections even with the rest of their own states.
The thing is here, it seems you are making a region from topography and vegetation, rather than history, attitudes, speech religious patterns, settlement, culture, etc.

In some ways this is fine...if we are talking total physical geography. But the true measure of a region -- as is generally defined -- are the traits above. And most of Texas and most of Oklahoma do not share the said with those states above them.

At most, they shared an "era" (frontier, as I believe you yourself noted), not a commonality of basic history and culture. Here is a pretty good article on the subject:

Frontier Strip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:16 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,136,223 times
Reputation: 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnhw2 View Post
Same with Texas, go try west Tx then think about those that argue Tx is southern. West Tx looks more like NM or Arizona than the south but then I know facts dont always matter on CD.
I have been to west Texas countless times and, as compared to New Mexico and Arizona, it is still essentially Southern. It was overwhelmingly settled by pioneers from the southeast, and remains today one of the strongest bastions of the Southern Baptist Church. The accent spoken by most rural residents of that area is definitely Southern American English, very akin to that heard in eastern Tennessee and North Alabama.

Its economic base was and is, cotton, and even most west-Texans self-identify as living in the South and considering themselves Southerners. Many of the west Texas counties are named after Confederate era figures.

This is in stark contrast to those in NM and AZ, where -- topography aside -- things are much different.

So those are some counter-facts to what you present.

Quote:
Interesting post, what do you consider frontier states? For those who claim Tx is southern, they need to get to know west texas including big bend country. Definately out west in Tx is what I consider to be frontier states.
I think most would agree that far west Texas (i.e. Trans-pecos) is truly interior southwest. But again, most of west Texas still retains a Southern base to it, very different from the states to the west.

That is why the term "western (or frontier) South" seems very apt when it comes to the state. In the same sense as that a Kansas and Nebraska could be labeled "western (or frontier) Midwest!
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