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Old 03-31-2012, 08:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
There are some people in Detroit who have commented to me about all the southern accents they heard in Dayton, Ohio.
That's kinda funny because the Detroit accent sounds almost southern to me. The rest of Michigan is a different story, really midwestern. Almost Canadian, and gee golly is it annoying Ohio sounds more neutral to me, though I don't know anyone outta Dayton.
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Old 03-31-2012, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnhw2 View Post
I agree they do have accents but do not agree its a Southern accent. But there is more to a region than accent and weather imho. Do you consider Minnesota the midwest too? I hear a different accent there vs Michigan or Pennsylvania or Ohio. I agree our winters are milder but we do get winters where Houston really does not. I believe southern is as misdefined as those of you who feel you are midwestern but Ok and Tx are not. Lets hear your definition of what is midwestern and please give me more than weather and accent. Thanks
It is a southern accent...professional linguistics have classified it as such, and it's got all the necessary components. The way people there pronounce their o's, i's, and say "y'all" are just some of the basics. Minneapolis is more Midwest than Dallas is...it's heard in other parts of the Midwest and is much more in place vs. Oklahoma and Texas. Pennsylvania isn't the Midwest. And besides just accents, Minnesota has Midwestern culture and demographics, something that Dallas and Oklahoma do not.
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:26 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
I don't agree at all here except for the panhandle. THe southwestern part is definitely southern...if Amarillo, Texas is southern, so is this place. The only part of Oklahoma I'd say that doesn't fall into the definition of southern is the panhandle. The rest of the state may have some minor influences from other regions, but culturally, demographically, and linguistically, this state is southern. No way would I ever group it in with the Southwest or the Midwest. Most of the state is southern. Oklahoma shares the most in common with fellow southern states Arkansas and Texas. Most of the state is classifiable as southern. Oklahoma shares the most in common with Arkansas and Texas, both of which are Southern states.
I guess if you want to make a real broad generalization you might be correct but it is much more nuanced than that. For instance, Amarillo, Tx is southwestern in my mind. I don't consider mesquite country "southern" which the southwestern part of Oklahoma and almost the entire western part of Texas consists of . Mesquite is very southwestern to me.

If you are going to say the entire state of Texas is "southern" then I guess you would classify Oklahoma as southern but it isn't really accurate in describing the terrain, weather, the people, how the country was settled etc. Perhaps you have to live here to understand this dynamic but people in northwestern Oklahoma are different culturally than say southeastern Oklahoma. The economy is completely different. The weather is completely different. The terrain is completely different.

The "great plains" region is more accurate to describe the western parts of Oklahoma, Kansas, eastern Colorado, most of South Dakota, some and much of west Texas rather than to try to lump those sections even with the rest of their own states.

Last edited by eddie gein; 04-01-2012 at 05:34 AM..
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Old 04-01-2012, 07:39 AM
 
Location: IN
20,846 posts, read 35,937,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
I guess if you want to make a real broad generalization you might be correct but it is much more nuanced than that. For instance, Amarillo, Tx is southwestern in my mind. I don't consider mesquite country "southern" which the southwestern part of Oklahoma and almost the entire western part of Texas consists of . Mesquite is very southwestern to me.

If you are going to say the entire state of Texas is "southern" then I guess you would classify Oklahoma as southern but it isn't really accurate in describing the terrain, weather, the people, how the country was settled etc. Perhaps you have to live here to understand this dynamic but people in northwestern Oklahoma are different culturally than say southeastern Oklahoma. The economy is completely different. The weather is completely different. The terrain is completely different.

The "great plains" region is more accurate to describe the western parts of Oklahoma, Kansas, eastern Colorado, most of South Dakota, some and much of west Texas rather than to try to lump those sections even with the rest of their own states.
Also, population density is an easy way to group in like with like in the Great Plains region. The majority of the counties are rural with ranching and farming being the predominant economic activities. Population density is less than 5 people per square mile for the most part, which constitutes frontier status.
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Also, population density is an easy way to group in like with like in the Great Plains region. The majority of the counties are rural with ranching and farming being the predominant economic activities. Population density is less than 5 people per square mile for the most part, which constitutes frontier status.
Another interesting thing I have observed about Oklahoma in particular and is probably true of other states that are bisected by the great plains.

Highway 81 bisects Oklahoma north to south and It is approximately 30-40 miles west of and parallel to I-35 in Oklahoma. In traveling extensively through Oklahoma I have observed that there are no tumbleweeds east of that Highway. Yet west of it there are pretty common. Are tumbleweeds representative of the south? southwest? Great plains?
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
I guess if you want to make a real broad generalization you might be correct but it is much more nuanced than that. For instance, Amarillo, Tx is southwestern in my mind. I don't consider mesquite country "southern" which the southwestern part of Oklahoma and almost the entire western part of Texas consists of . Mesquite is very southwestern to me.

If you are going to say the entire state of Texas is "southern" then I guess you would classify Oklahoma as southern but it isn't really accurate in describing the terrain, weather, the people, how the country was settled etc. Perhaps you have to live here to understand this dynamic but people in northwestern Oklahoma are different culturally than say southeastern Oklahoma. The economy is completely different. The weather is completely different. The terrain is completely different.

The "great plains" region is more accurate to describe the western parts of Oklahoma, Kansas, eastern Colorado, most of South Dakota, some and much of west Texas rather than to try to lump those sections even with the rest of their own states.
I've been to Amarillo, know people from Amarillo, etc...Ron White is from Amarillo and if he's not a southerner, then nobody is. Oklahoma and Texas are more Southern than anything else.
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,226,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
Another interesting thing I have observed about Oklahoma in particular and is probably true of other states that are bisected by the great plains.

Highway 81 bisects Oklahoma north to south and It is approximately 30-40 miles west of and parallel to I-35 in Oklahoma. In traveling extensively through Oklahoma I have observed that there are no tumbleweeds east of that Highway. Yet west of it there are pretty common. Are tumbleweeds representative of the south? southwest? Great plains?
So tumbleweeds overcome culture, demographics, and linguistics? Please
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,226,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GraniteStater View Post
Also, population density is an easy way to group in like with like in the Great Plains region. The majority of the counties are rural with ranching and farming being the predominant economic activities. Population density is less than 5 people per square mile for the most part, which constitutes frontier status.
Culture, demographics, and linguistics contradict this.
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
So tumbleweeds overcome culture, demographics, and linguistics? Please
The culture, demographics and linguistics are not the same either.

Although the culture is "conservative" state wide, the people in northwestern Oklahoma are ethnically different than those in southeastern Oklahoma. More german, nordic and slavic and less native american. Southeastern Oklahoma is more scotch irish and italian. There are virtually no african americans in northwest Oklahoma while there are quite a few in the red river basin in southeast Oklahoma. The weather is colder, drier and winder in northwestern Oklahoma and the terrain is vastly different. The economy is different. But as I said, every state that is bisected by the great plains is different in the western and eastern sections. It's just that in Oklahoma and Texas it is more pronounced.

I think a lot of people would say the same thing about northern and southern Missouri or the areas of Missouri that are influenced by KC or St. Louis. They are not the same. But if you have to stick the whole state of Missouri in a "region" I guess you pick the midwest.

Oklahoma is the same way except moreso. I won't argue that the state does have a strong southern influence and even southern democrats got the upper hand when the state first started so that influenced the government for a long time. So if you have to stick us in the south that is acceptable but we are not that great a fit state wide.

Last edited by eddie gein; 04-01-2012 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 04-01-2012, 10:40 AM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
13,217 posts, read 17,948,587 times
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As somebody who grew up in the Pittsburgh area, I've never understood the "Midwest" label that some people place on it. No, Pittsburgh is not located along I-95, but it doesn't have to be. We all realize that the Midwest, South and West aren't monolithic regions of the country, so why does the Northeast have to be monolithic? Yeah, Pittsburgh was a heavily industrial city, but so were Boston, Philadelphia and Baltimore once upon a time. Yeah, they say "pop" in Pittsburgh instead of "soda," but they say "soda" in St. Louis instead of "pop."

In terms of settlement, built environment, state government influence, migration networks, and even the type of manufacturing that took place, Pittsburgh has more in common with the Northeast. It was the epicenter of the French and Indian War, and became a permanent settlement in 1758. It was placed in Pennsylvania in 1780 when the Mason-Dixon Line was extended west. It developed an economy soon thereafter, building boats by 1784, and making glass by 1797. By comparison, Cleveland and Cincinnati had only just become permanent settlements by that time, and didn't incorporate until well after 1800. In fact, the only Midwestern city with British settlers prior to the Revolutionary War was Detroit.

The built environment is more similar to the Northeast as well, particularly the Mid-Atlantic. Pennsylvania and Maryland both have very similar built environment, with everything from the big cities to the small towns having lots of row houses, plus lots of buildings that are tight to the streets and roads that they're located on. Every city or town located in or near a Pittsburgh/Philadelphia/Washington DC triangle has this development pattern, plus many similar architectural signatures. In the Midwest, Cincinnati and St. Louis are built similarly to the Mid-Atlantic, but that's a function of westward expansion. They're the architectural oddballs of the Midwest.

State government has an influence on the culture of a city as well. I've used this comparison before, but one of the key differences between Pittsburgh and Cleveland is that Pennsylvania behaves like a Northeastern state, and Ohio behaves like a Midwestern state. Despite being only 120 miles apart, Cleveland is shaped by policies dictated in Columbus, while Pittsburgh is shaped by policies dictated in Harrisburg. State lines do matter, and they will continue to do so.

Migration networks pull Pittsburgh into the Northeast as well. In terms of gross migration -- in-migration plus out-migration -- Pittsburgh has its strongest ties with Washington DC, Philadelphia and New York, respectively. In fact, here's the top 10:

10 largest migration networks, Pittsburgh MSA
22,190 - Washington, DC
20,864 - Philadelphia, PA
18,419 - New York, NY
14,758 - Youngstown, OH
10,002 - Cleveland, OH
9,722 - Erie, PA
9,181 - Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, FL
8,761 - Tampa/St. Petersburg, FL
8,677 - Columbus, OH
8,514 - Chicago, IL

Basically, migration networks west of Columbus, OH aren't very strong for Pittsburgh. Simply having a connection with Ohio doesn't make it connected to the rest of the Midwest by extension. I don't see Detroit, Indianapolis, Cincinnati or St. Louis on that list. I do see the Northeast running the top three, though.

As for Chicago, here's a graph illustrating its migration networks with every major MSA within 500 miles:




Its connection with Pittsburgh is comparatively weak. Its connection with Cleveland is twice as strong, and its connection with Minneapolis/St. Paul is six times as strong. The blogger who highlighted this information (Aaron Renn) had this to say about the migration networks of both Pittsburgh and Chicago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Renn
What we see from this view is a strong alignment with major East Coast metros as well as a secondary flow through the emerging Tech Belt between Cleveland and Pittsburgh.

...

From this you could probably trace the outline of Chicago’s real sphere of influence from a human capital network perspective. Those top five cities clearly have a tighter relationship with Chicago than the rest. Pittsburgh and Louisville unsurprisingly bring up the rear. They are dubious as Midwest cities to begin with, and this just helps illustrate why.

Incidentally, the low standing of Pittsburgh on Chicago’s migration list, combined with its own East Coast orientation shows perfectly why Penn State has no business being in the Big Ten (IMHO). Also, while there might be a megaregion called Chi-Pitts, it’s not clear to me if Pittsburgh is really in it. Perhaps the are actually a couple of regions in the area from a human capital perspective, one centered on Chicago and another from the remains of the old metals region. This is an area for further research.

The type of manufacturing that Pittsburgh specialized in makes a difference too. Like other industrial Northeastern cities, Pittsburgh was known for manufacturing advanced materials like steel, aluminum, glass and chemicals (think textiles in New England), rather than the finished products the industrial Midwestern cities produced like cars, construction and agricultural equipment, and all the parts therein. This isn't to say that Pittsburgh didn't manufacture any finished products, just that it wasn't the primary type of manufacturing.

Contrary to the defensive claims of a few, this is not me looking down on the Midwest. Pittsburgh does have a degree of Midwestern influence, but it has stronger Northeastern and northern Appalachian influences. In fact, it's the Northeast/northern Appalachians/eastern Great Lakes interaction that defines the interior Northeast, which Pittsburgh is part of, as are Buffalo and Rochester. Plain and simple, Pittsburgh is located in a Northeastern state, was settled by English settlers prior to the Revolutionary War, began to develop its economic clout before 1800, specialized in manufacturing advanced materials, shares a built environment with large swathes of Pennsylvania and Maryland, and has its strongest migration networks with the Northeast megalopolis. There is no Midwestern city that has all six of those traits.
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