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All I am doing is defining a region of cities that lie on a similar topography that have much in common. I'm not going to allow a sliver of southern atmosphere completely seperate OK and Dallas from the rest of the pack.
Good point from your perspective, and really, it is the point of contension here. I live in North Texas, my ex (my kid's mother) is from Kansas, and her family lives there, so I have been up there many times (and always enjoyed it, far as that goes).
While I agree with you that the geographical/topographical features contain many similarities (as does the weather! LOL)? What you call the "sliver" of "southern atmosphere" is -- to me -- not only not a sliver, but the most important feature of all, when it comes to seperating the pairs (hey, pretty much along the lines of the Big 12 SOUTH and NORTH divisions! LOL).
I know personal experience in and of itself is not a good indicator of what is or isn't....but my own was that there seemed very little in common between Texas and most of Oklahoma, and that of the northern plains states.
The accent was perhaps the most noteable feature, and the general absence of Southern Baptist churches. Even the history was much different in the way it was presented. For instance -- my ex-father in law being a history buff as well, he would often take me out to various locations, including courthouses and going thru old cemeteries. GAR (Grand Old Army...Union) was unquestionably the almost exclusive feature on the headstone and monuments up there. Whereas in Texas? They are of the same ratio...except it is UCV (United Confederate Veterans) down here...
And also, of course, it is a fact that most of those in the northern plains states overwhelmingly self-identify with the Midwest....whereas -- by at least the same majorities -- Texans and Oklahomans clearly claim a Southern identity.
I just got back into town, StLouisan, and am trying to catch up in reading all the posts! LOL
You and Bass&Catfish have done a great job of taking care of business and refuting some common misconceptions! Proud to be friends with both y'all!
Anyway, I am still reading over a bit, and selecting a few posts to reply to. In the meantime, here is that survey that you referred to earlier (along with a press-release describing it).
The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.
Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.
It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.
--John Shelton Reed
***
Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)
Good point from your perspective, and really, it is the point of contension here. I live in North Texas, my ex (my kid's mother) is from Kansas, and her family lives there, so I have been up there many times (and always enjoyed it, far as that goes).
While I agree with you that the geographical/topographical features contain many similarities (as does the weather! LOL)? What you call the "sliver" of "southern atmosphere" is -- to me -- not only not a sliver, but the most important feature of all, when it comes to seperating the pairs (hey, pretty much along the lines of the Big 12 SOUTH and NORTH divisions! LOL).
I know personal experience in and of itself is not a good indicator of what is or isn't....but my own was that there seemed very little in common between Texas and most of Oklahoma, and that of the northern plains states.
The accent was perhaps the most noteable feature, and the general absence of Southern Baptist churches. Even the history was much different in the way it was presented. For instance -- my ex-father in law being a history buff as well, he would often take me out to various locations, including courthouses and going thru old cemeteries. GAR (Grand Old Army...Union) was unquestionably the almost exclusive feature on the headstone and monuments up there. Whereas in Texas? They are of the same ratio...except it is UCV (United Confederate Veterans) down here...
And also, of course, it is a fact that most of those in the northern plains states overwhelmingly self-identify with the Midwest....whereas -- by at least the same majorities -- Texans and Oklahomans clearly claim a Southern identity.
>>>>>
While I agree with you that the geographical/topographical features contain many similarities (as does the weather! LOL)? What you call the "sliver" of "southern atmosphere" is -- to me -- not only not a sliver, but the most important feature of all, when it comes to seperating the pairs (hey, pretty much along the lines of the Big 12 SOUTH and NORTH divisions! LOL).
<<<<<
Good point from your perspective, and really, it is the point of contension here. I live in North Texas, my ex (my kid's mother) is from Kansas, and her family lives there, so I have been up there many times (and always enjoyed it, far as that goes).
While I agree with you that the geographical/topographical features contain many similarities (as does the weather! LOL)? What you call the "sliver" of "southern atmosphere" is -- to me -- not only not a sliver, but the most important feature of all, when it comes to seperating the pairs (hey, pretty much along the lines of the Big 12 SOUTH and NORTH divisions! LOL).
I know personal experience in and of itself is not a good indicator of what is or isn't....but my own was that there seemed very little in common between Texas and most of Oklahoma, and that of the northern plains states.
The accent was perhaps the most noteable feature, and the general absence of Southern Baptist churches. Even the history was much different in the way it was presented. For instance -- my ex-father in law being a history buff as well, he would often take me out to various locations, including courthouses and going thru old cemeteries. GAR (Grand Old Army...Union) was unquestionably the almost exclusive feature on the headstone and monuments up there. Whereas in Texas? They are of the same ratio...except it is UCV (United Confederate Veterans) down here...
And also, of course, it is a fact that most of those in the northern plains states overwhelmingly self-identify with the Midwest....whereas -- by at least the same majorities -- Texans and Oklahomans clearly claim a Southern identity.
That is odd. Cause the Oklahoma cities are so similar to the nebraska and kansas cities that you'd never know you are in this miniture region.
I agree that the difference between the central and southern plains is a difference in metaphoric affiliation (central to the midwest and south to the south), but that is only in subtle differences. OKC looks very little like Little Rock, Birmingham, Jackson, Columbus GA etc. If it did look any more like them, then OKC wouldn't be having the kind of boom state it is having now. It is in the southern part of the US, on the great plains and looks much like Omaha, KC, Des Moines etc. (For clarity reasons I do not consider San Antonio, Austin, El and Paso as southern cities either.. They are different which resembles more southwestern - esque lifestyle with maybe a hint of southern life).
Believe me, I know that Oklahoma and Texas are in the southern part of the US and we all know they are also in the great plains. Take away those physical relational aspects and you have a region of very similar cities with subtle differences.
That is odd. Cause the Oklahoma cities are so similar to the nebraska and kansas cities that you'd never know you are in this miniture region.
I agree that the difference between the central and southern plains is a difference in metaphoric affiliation (central to the midwest and south to the south), but that is only in subtle differences. OKC looks very little like Little Rock, Birmingham, Jackson, Columbus GA etc. If it did look any more like them, then OKC wouldn't be having the kind of boom state it is having now. It is in the southern part of the US, on the great plains and looks much like Omaha, KC, Des Moines etc. (For clarity reasons I do not consider San Antonio, Austin, El and Paso as southern cities either.. They are different which resembles more southwestern - esque lifestyle with maybe a hint of southern life).
Believe me, I know that Oklahoma and Texas are in the southern part of the US and we all know they are also in the great plains. Take away those physical relational aspects and you have a region of very similar cities with subtle differences.
Essentially, taken as a whole, this is where we are probably talking past each other...and obviously proceeding from different premises. You seem to be placing much more emphasis on topography than the characteristics which make a region in the deeper historical/cultural manner.
El Paso? I would agree with as being truly southwestern. However, Austin and even San Antonio have a strong basic Southern history/culture component that is unshared by any city in the true (interior) Southwest. In fact, San Antonio advertizes its "Southern" history in tourist literature...and calls itself a "Blend of the Old South and Old Mexico...". And for good reason.
A Santa Fe or Phoenix or Tuscon could never make such a claim...
Anyway, enjoyed the discussion and will rejoin again later. Right now, gotta go have supper and do some reading and taking it easy!
Essentially, taken as a whole, this is where we are probably talking past each other...and obviously proceeding from different premises. You seem to be placing much more emphasis on topography than the characteristics which make a region in the deeper historical/cultural manner.
El Paso? I would agree with as being truly southwestern. However, Austin and even San Antonio have a strong basic Southern history/culture component that is unshared by any city in the true (interior) Southwest. In fact, San Antonio advertizes its "Southern" history in tourist literature...and calls itself a "Blend of the Old South and Old Mexico...". And for good reason.
A Santa Fe or Phoenix or Tuscon could never make such a claim...
Anyway, enjoyed the discussion and will rejoin again later. Right now, gotta go have supper and do some reading and taking it easy!
Y'all all have a great evening!
I'm not talking topography. I'm talking about city styles, the people, the lifestyles etc. OKC has a bit of southern culture, but it is in no way more related to Biloxi than Kansas City. There is such a big difference and I'm not quite sure you are aware of this. Dallas is nothing like the traditional southern cities either. I've been in the south and neither Dallas nor OKC come close to having the same look or feel as a Birmingham or Biloxi. They are very great plains like with a southern flavor, but it's definitely not a lot of southerness in them.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,092,866 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omahahonors
I'm not talking topography. I'm talking about city styles, the people, the lifestyles etc. OKC has a bit of southern culture, but it is in no way more related to Biloxi than Kansas City. There is such a big difference and I'm not quite sure you are aware of this. Dallas is nothing like the traditional southern cities either. I've been in the south and neither Dallas nor OKC come close to having the same look or feel as a Birmingham or Biloxi. They are very great plains like with a southern flavor, but it's definitely not a lot of southerness in them.
culturally, linguistically, and demographically, okc and dallas are more like biloxi than any part of the midwest. including its neighbors
to the north.
I'm not talking topography. I'm talking about city styles, the people, the lifestyles etc. OKC has a bit of southern culture, but it is in no way more related to Biloxi than Kansas City. There is such a big difference and I'm not quite sure you are aware of this. Dallas is nothing like the traditional southern cities either. I've been in the south and neither Dallas nor OKC come close to having the same look or feel as a Birmingham or Biloxi. They are very great plains like with a southern flavor, but it's definitely not a lot of southerness in them.
Uhhhhh, I grew up and live about 120 miles from the DFW area and get down there quite often, so yes, I am familiar with it. Topography aside (which you brought up initially) you are arguably correct in on aspect. To wit, that the metroplex -- in recent years -- is taking on a stronger Midwestern type atmosphere. BUT, this is due almost exclusively to the ever increasing number of Midwestern transplants to the area.
Historically and culturally speaking, Dallas is easily a Southern city, not a Midwestern one. All one has to do is get off the beaten path to see it.
But I gotta get to work. Y'all all have a good day!
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,536,583 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan
the three musketeers...we are
all for one and one for all!
And I'm the ghost who pops in at random.
Tex said "off the beaten path." This is an elusive truth to most people. Too many generalize a region by its urban circles.
Happens all across the nation. By and large folks seem to forget, or perhaps ignore, that cities are tight and self contained atmospheres. They say little to nothing about the surrounding country side and small towns (not counting the obvious suburbs).
Once you leave their immediate influence things tend to change. And especially once you remove yourself from the vaster circle of influence, things change drastically. Even within MSA boundaries.
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