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Old 03-20-2012, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,227,179 times
Reputation: 998

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Give me the links to the old videos. Are you talking about Smtchll's video, which appears to be very recent, with kids born in the 1990s, which says nothing about how people talked there 50 years ago. Stlouisan linked to a study in the 1990s, which showed that even then, northern Missouri is in the South Midlands band, much closer to the southern than to the accents of the northern Midwest. The area called South Midland, in the Pennsylvania study, has, to this day, what a northerner would call a southern accent, because it resembles a southern accent to the ear of anyone who is not a University of Pennsylvania PhD linguist.

The only arguments you people are coming up with are that people who lived there didn't think they had an accent. Nobody ever thinks they have an accent, so that is not relevant. You're both Missourians saying "Who. me? I don't have an accent".

Before anybody else puts words in my mouth, I am not saying northern Missouri has a southern accent now, so quit telling me that they don't. I'm saying they did 50-60 years ago, and it has changed, and the topic of this thread is areas that have changed their northern/southern orientation. In fact the whole south has changed, and people in the deep south now speak with much less of a southern accent than they did 60 years ago.
Again, no they did not. My father and uncle both grew up in Joplin, Missouri during the 1940, 1950s, and 1960s, and a full-blown southern accent was out of the norm even then. And I've already spoken about my grandmother. All the videos i've ever seen of people from back in those times feature people who had the exact same dialect as my ancestors. A few southern influences, but just too lacking to be a southern accent. Even today, you can find many older people in rural Northern/Central Missouri whose twang is identical to the way my grandmother spoke. She spoke that way in the '50s, '60s, and '70s, and essentially never left Missouri for the first 50 years of life..when she did, she moved even further south to Louisiana. According to my father, she never talked any differently, and the 15 years I visited her in Louisiana always convinced me that she sounded nothing like the people there. Refer to kshe's comments because I can't devote 24 hours a day to correcting you. If you disagree, fine...but Gunner, Kshe, and me would have told you that you were correct a long time ago...we know what we're talking about.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,440 posts, read 31,715,256 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
No. Present your own supporting citations if you think you have any.
Dude, debate 101.
You're the one that initially posited the theory, not me.
Therefore, its your job to bring in corroborating evidence to back up your stance.
Anything else is intellectual laziness.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 4,227,179 times
Reputation: 998
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Give me the links to the old videos. Are you talking about Smtchll's video, which appears to be very recent, with kids born in the 1990s, which says nothing about how people talked there 50 years ago. Stlouisan linked to a study in the 1990s, which showed that even then, northern Missouri is in the South Midlands band, much closer to the southern than to the accents of the northern Midwest. The area called South Midland, in the Pennsylvania study, has, to this day, what a northerner would call a southern accent, because it resembles a southern accent to the ear of anyone who is not a University of Pennsylvania PhD linguist.

The only arguments you people are coming up with are that people who lived there didn't think they had an accent. Nobody ever thinks they have an accent, so that is not relevant. You're both Missourians saying "Who. me? I don't have an accent".

Before anybody else puts words in my mouth, I am not saying northern Missouri has a southern accent now, so quit telling me that they don't. I'm saying they did 50-60 years ago, and it has changed, and the topic of this thread is areas that have changed their northern/southern orientation. In fact the whole south has changed, and people in the deep south now speak with much less of a southern accent than they did 60 years ago.
So you're accusing professional linguists of being incompetent and the opinions of the average uneducated person valid...wow...your credibility just plummetted with me.

The South Midland is called it because it has some southern traits, and also because it is in the southern part of the Midland, which is different from the south, not because it resembles a southern accent.

None of them just thought they didn't have a southern accent...they knew...and they knew the places they lived in weren't the south.

This isn't a subjective opinion on my part. If you want the videos I've watched, just look up every video you can find of Central and Northern Missouri on the internet...baby boomers still talk like the old timers. the voice of Jimmeny Cricket in disney's pinnochio was done by a guy from Hannibal...that was his real voice. Look up Audrain County, Missouri on youtube or Mexico..I can't remember how I found the video, but it showed an on-camera interview of recognition of a World War II general, a life-long resident of Mexico, with his wife, also a life long resident of rural Missouri, on there...it was in the '50s, both were well over 50...a guy from Louisville is on the show...listening to the two of those men, plus the guy from missouri's wife speak makes them sound like night and day. I'm going to be busy for the next week so unfortunately you're on your own...just dig and those videos should surface. Do "Missouri news" only rural areas as well on youtube...you should get a decent sample of baby-boomers or older...I can assure you that anyone born in the '40s, '50s, or early '60s that has stayed in a rural area will speak the same as people born before that. refer to kshe and gunner if you want more drama

Far SEMO and SCMO is the only place where you have a high concentration of indiscriminately southern accents in Missouri. There is no denying you're in the south in these places, because at that point those people fit in with the rest of the Midwest like the ugly duckling did with his siblings (not insulting people from there, just an analogy of how well they fit in in terms of dialect and culture)

Last edited by stlouisan; 03-20-2012 at 02:43 PM..
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,231,932 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan View Post
I can't devote 24 hours a day to correcting you. If you disagree, fine...but Gunner, Kshe, and me would have told you that you were correct a long time ago...we know what we're talking about.
You got it backwards. I'm not the one who disagrees. You are. I made a statement based on my knowledge and experience, relevant to the topic of the thread. YOU disagreed with it.
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,440 posts, read 31,715,256 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I'm not the one who disagrees. You are. I made a statement based on my knowledge and experience, relevant to the topic of the thread. YOU disagreed with it.
A statement based on an anecdote.
An anecdote is not proof.
As I said, debate 101.....its not our job to prove your point.
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,231,932 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by kshe95girl View Post
A statement based on an anecdote.
An anecdote is not proof.
As I said, debate 101.....its not our job to prove your point.
I'm not going to let you goad me into an infraction. End of discussion.
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
7,387 posts, read 10,066,687 times
Reputation: 5913
Seems the Missourians here are AWFULLY defensive of not being considered southern. Same prejudices that have been around for decades. Finally got over it myself and embraced it.

If someone came to me and said my section of Georgia had less of a southern accent than others, had a little more northern influence, I would be intrigued by their observation. If someone told me their forebears came from a certain section of Georgia and their accent had changed from his remembrances of years gone by, again I would be intrigued. I might point out that my experiences varied from that, but I would have no reason to go on and all out assault and debate over the topic.

Wonder why, you Show Me'ers? Or is that moniker a little more apt than just a motto?
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,440 posts, read 31,715,256 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Seems the Missourians here are AWFULLY defensive of not being considered southern. Same prejudices that have been around for decades. Finally got over it myself and embraced it.

If someone came to me and said my section of Georgia had less of a southern accent than others, had a little more northern influence, I would be intrigued by their observation. If someone told me their forebears came from a certain section of Georgia and their accent had changed from his remembrances of years gone by, again I would be intrigued. I might point out that my experiences varied from that, but I would have no reason to go on and all out assault and debate over the topic.

Wonder why, you Show Me'ers? Or is that moniker a little more apt than just a motto?
More ridiculousness.
We get rather weary of people that dont know a whole lot about our state painting it with the broadest of brushes.
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Silver Springs, FL
23,440 posts, read 31,715,256 times
Reputation: 15560
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I'm not going to let you goad me into an infraction. End of discussion.
I'm not trying to goad you into anything.
You made a statement, totally failed to provide proof of it, got called out on it, and still failed to provide proof.
End of story.
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:28 PM
 
Location: West Tennessee
2,081 posts, read 2,898,302 times
Reputation: 1331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Seems the Missourians here are AWFULLY defensive of not being considered southern. Same prejudices that have been around for decades. Finally got over it myself and embraced it.

If someone came to me and said my section of Georgia had less of a southern accent than others, had a little more northern influence, I would be intrigued by their observation. If someone told me their forebears came from a certain section of Georgia and their accent had changed from his remembrances of years gone by, again I would be intrigued. I might point out that my experiences varied from that, but I would have no reason to go on and all out assault and debate over the topic.

Wonder why, you Show Me'ers? Or is that moniker a little more apt than just a motto?
I'm a born and bred Missourian who considers himself to be a southerner (I'm from Southeast Missouri) so that's not it. I don't consider most Missourians to be southerners however because most Missourians don't act or talk southern at all. What KSHE said is true, Missouri can't be painted with such a broad brush. Overall, it's a midwestern state however.
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