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When neighborhoods were comparatively denser and there was enough street life to warrant having many shops open in many places, you didn't really go bring home 6 bags of grocery because it wasn't a big detour to get to the shops in the first place. It sort of still works this way in a good chunk of NYC--you just grab stuff on the way home or if you need something you just take a brisk walk and get it.
You don't think people drove to get food in the 1930s, 40s and 50s?
If Philadelphia had a strong job market, and provided subsidies to developers to build along designated commercial corridors, then yes, there would be development along streetcar lines there.
The streetcar is not what's attracting development to H Street. The gentrification we see on H Street was inevitable. First, it's adjacent to Downtown. Second, it's adjacent to ridiculously gentrified Capitol Hill. Third, it's probably the longest commercial corridor in DC after Georgia Avenue, so it was only natural that it would be developed. Fourth, the surrounding neighborhoods contain the cheapest supply of Victorian rowhouses in the city. That's the perfect recipe for gentrification. Development was going to happen along H Street whether a streetcar was built or not.
Giving the streetcar credit for H Street's "renewal" is like giving the OKC Thunder's bench scrubs credit for closing out the Lakers last night.
I'm sorry but your wrong. Streetcars represent a permanent form of transit. I know you have your opinions but it's time to drop our opinions in this debate and start using developers actual words and actions. H street would not be gentrifying like it has without the promise of a streetcar. Infact, the largest development yet to be built on H street has not moved forward yet because they are waiting for the streetcar. When I say development by the way, I'm talking about 200+ unit high rises to add density. I'm not talking about row houses which can't support rail transit in the first place. Georgia Ave is about to get completely gutted as well with streetcar coming through there. The development driven by streetcars is just right on the street up against the streetcar. That is where development would not happen without metro stations or streetcar lines. You would be hard pressed to find corridors lined with 8 story high rises in DC with 200-300 units not near a metro station or a streetcar line. The street wall and increased density from high rises is going to line every streetcar route but will not be on routes without rail transit. Ask any developer and they will tell you the same thing.
If Philadelphia had a strong job market, and provided subsidies to developers to build along designated commercial corridors, then yes, there would be development along streetcar lines there.
The streetcar is not what's attracting development to H Street. The gentrification we see on H Street was inevitable. First, it's adjacent to Downtown. Second, it's adjacent to ridiculously gentrified Capitol Hill. Third, it's probably the longest commercial corridor in DC after Georgia Avenue, so it was only natural that it would be developed. Fourth, the surrounding neighborhoods contain the cheapest supply of Victorian rowhouses in the city. That's the perfect recipe for gentrification. Development was going to happen along H Street whether a streetcar was built or not.
Giving the streetcar credit for H Street's "renewal" is like giving the OKC Thunder's bench scrubs credit for closing out the Lakers last night.
Also, aren't most of the areas where the streetcars run in Philly builtout? Philly being such a row house city doesn't have the huge swaths of developable land in the city. Baltimore faces the same problem with row houses that have to be renovated versus razed and replaced with high rises. DC is a "Grand Boulevard" city which gives it more flexibly to build high rises across the city on these. Commercial strips in DC is the only place this development is taking place which would not happen on narrow streets with rowhouses like the streets that fill Philly and Bmore.
I'm sorry but your wrong. Streetcars represent a permanent form of transit.
Permanent? They weren't too permanent in about 100 cities across America. It's really not that hard to simply pave over some damned tracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
I know you have your opinions but it's time to drop our opinions in this debate and start using developers actual words and actions. H street would not be gentrifying like it has without the promise of a streetcar.
Washington, DC has been gentrifying long before a streetcar was ever in the picture. H Street is simply the last frontier for urban pioneers (east of the River, that is). Do you really think these houses were just going to sit there for another 20 years in a city full of well-paid yuppie lawyers, doctors and lobbyists?
H Street is a direct pipeline to downtown, it is one of the city's longest commercial corridors, it has the cheapest Victorian rowhouses in the city, and it's right next to Capitol Hill. That's not a hard sell. H Street was going to become a yuppie playground whether a streetcar came to the neighborhood or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
Infact, the largest development yet to be built on H street has not moved forward yet because they are waiting for the streetcar. When I say development by the way, I'm talking about 200+ unit high rises to add density. I'm not talking about row houses which can't support rail transit in the first place.
That's interesting. So why did they build so many streetcar lines in neighborhoods that didn't even have rowhouses?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
Georgia Ave is about to get completely gutted as well with streetcar coming through there. The development driven by streetcars is just right on the street up against the streetcar. That is where development would not happen without metro stations or streetcar lines. You would be hard pressed to find corridors lined with 8 story high rises in DC with 200-300 units not near a metro station or a streetcar line. The street wall and increased density from high rises is going to line every streetcar route but will not be on routes without rail transit. Ask any developer and they will tell you the same thing.
You really need to stop putting Metro and streetcars in the same sentence together. Metro has just a few differences from a streetcar.
-Metro runs between 50-65mph. Streetcar runs between 10-25mph.
-Traffic has no impact on Metro. Traffic has a very direct impact on streetcars (more impact on streetcars than buses).
-A Metro line in the city costs significantly more to build than a streetcar line, so the capital investment must be unequivocally justifiable.
There's a reason why people flock to be near a Metro station: it actually gets you places and gets you there fast.
And there are several neighborhoods in DC that have gentrified without Metro or the promise of a streetcar. Adams-Morgan, Woodley Park and Bloomingdale do not have a Metro stop, but they were quick to gentrify because of their housing stock, proximity to downtown, and proximity to more affluent western neighborhoods. H Street's renaissance is not the product of a promise of a streetcar; it's the product of a warp speed gentrification process that was inevitably going to gobble it up along with most neighborhoods west of the Anacostia.
Also, aren't most of the areas where the streetcars run in Philly builtout? Philly being such a row house city doesn't have the huge swaths of developable land in the city. Baltimore faces the same problem with row houses that have to be renovated versus razed and replaced with high rises. DC is a "Grand Boulevard" city which gives it more flexibly to build high rises across the city on these. Commercial strips in DC is the only place this development is taking place which would not happen on narrow streets with rowhouses like the streets that fill Philly and Bmore.
Huh?
Philadelphia has HUGE swaths of "developable" land thanks to slum clearing. And there's no reason why developers could not buy out small businesses on commercial thoroughfares and build highrises. That's what they plan on doing with the strip mall owner along H Street, right?
If you had a huge slush fund set aside for developers (kinda like the $50 million slush fund that's OUR money set aside for McMillan), then Lancaster Avenue could have urban canyons "as far as the eye can see!!!"
The development along streetcar corridors is almost always supported by public subsidies. So instead of building the streetcar line, why not use the $100 million to subsidize more development?
Permanent? They weren't too permanent in about 100 cities across America. It's really not that hard to simply pave over some damned tracks.
Washington, DC has been gentrifying long before a streetcar was ever in the picture. H Street is simply the last frontier for urban pioneers (east of the River, that is). Do you really think these houses were just going to sit there for another 20 years in a city full of well-paid yuppie lawyers, doctors and lobbyists?
H Street is a direct pipeline to downtown, it is one of the city's longest commercial corridors, it has the cheapest Victorian rowhouses in the city, and it's right next to Capitol Hill. That's not a hard sell. H Street was going to become a yuppie playground whether a streetcar came to the neighborhood or not.
That's interesting. So why did they build so many streetcar lines in neighborhoods that didn't even have rowhouses?
You really need to stop putting Metro and streetcars in the same sentence together. Metro has just a few differences from a streetcar.
-Metro runs between 50-65mph. Streetcar runs between 10-25mph.
-Traffic has no impact on Metro. Traffic has a very direct impact on streetcars (more impact on streetcars than buses).
-A Metro line in the city costs significantly more to build than a streetcar line, so the capital investment must be unequivocally justifiable.
There's a reason why people flock to be near a Metro station: it actually gets you places and gets you there fast.
And there are several neighborhoods in DC that have gentrified without Metro or the promise of a streetcar. Adams-Morgan, Woodley Park and Bloomingdale do not have a Metro stop, but they were quick to gentrify because of their housing stock, proximity to downtown, and proximity to more affluent western neighborhoods. H Street's renaissance is not the product of a promise of a streetcar; it's the product of a warp speed gentrification process that was inevitably going to gobble it up along with most neighborhoods west of the Anacostia.
Well for one, streetcars and metro stations give developers incentive to build with greater density which is what this is all about. You keep bringing up rehabbed houses. That isn't a change. That is a paint job with new interior. I'm talking about building high rises in place of one and two story buildings. Gentrification is just new people moving in which has nothing to do with greater density. I'm strictly talking about greater density which is what streetcars are doing in D.C. Density can only be built with adequate premium transportation options and buses aren't marketable for choice riders which is what this is about. Developers can add value to their property when next to rail. Buses don't add any value to a property. I think you know the argument for rail vs. buses. It's poor vs. wealthy. It is what it it.
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