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Old 07-23-2012, 09:58 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,535,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PosterExtraordinaire View Post
Minneapolis (I never been) is not a part of the great lakes or the rust belt. If I were to choose a region for it, it'd be great plains. But really the cities from Minneapolis to st. louis don't fit nicely into any level and could probably be generically called the "midwest" though St. Louis has culturally, demographically, and economically more in common with great lakes cities than great plain cities.
This kind of belies your ignorance on the Midwest, though-- Minne is HANDS DOWN closer to a Great Lakes town than a Great Plains town, although you are right that it doesn't fit neatly into either.

Are you starting to get my point, though, about how you can't really pigeonhole everything in the Midwest into one of those two categories?
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PosterExtraordinaire View Post
there are 2 real regions and my point is that not only are they drastically different, they are not confined to what's traditionally called the midwest.

Out of great lakes cities (Duluth, Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Buffalo, Rochester - I would also attach Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and St. Louis because of economic and cultural similarities).

Great Plains (Dallas [yes], Austin, Minneapolis, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, Wichita, Des Moines, Omaha, Lincoln, Sioux Falls, Fargo, Tulsa etc ).

East Coast (Providence, Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, DC, New Haven, Wilmington, etc). I don't see how Pittsburgh has more similarities with ANY city in the East Coast designation versus the great lakes one. Same for Rochester. Same for Buffalo.
You're still just way out of whack on these "two definitions," though. If you think Minneapolis has *anything* in common with OKC, you've clearly never been to either.

If you think Milwaukee has soooo much in common with Rochester, you've clearly not been to one or the other....
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:32 PM
 
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I guess it's not really fair for me to rag on somebody else's delineations of the Midwest without providing my own. So, if forced to do it, here's how I would split it up:

Draw a big blob around Chicago, including Northern Indiana east to Michiana, and north from Chicago through Milwaukee, the Fox River Valley, and Door County.

Draw a big blob from the southern border of Wisconsin (around Beloit), northeast through Madison and Eau Claire, through the Twin Cities, all the way up to St. Cloud, including Rochester.

Draw a big blob from Champagne-Urbana, west through the Quad Cities and Des Moines, stopping at Omaha.

Most of Northern Iowa and Southern Minnesota (particularly the Minnesota River Valley) together.

Extreme western Minnesota, west through both of the Dakotas, stopping at at least the Missouri River-- probably as far as the Badlands in SoDak.

Draw a big blob south from Omaha around the Missouri River and Kansas City, including most of Nebraska and almost all of Kansas.

Draw a big blob around Cape Girardeau, St. Louis, and southern Illinois (around Cairo). Either extend this blob all the way across southern Indiana to Cincy, or draw a separate blob-- maybe even dipping south to Louisville?

Michiana+ the Lake Michigan shore of Michigan.

Big blob around Detroit and Toledo, including Flint.

Big blob around Cleveland, Akron, and Youngstown.

Big blob in central Ohio, centered around Columbus, no further south than Dayton.

Northern Minnesota, Northern Wisconsin, and the UP together.

Big blob around the Badlands, extending south into extreme western Nebraska, and maybe a little of western Kansas, as well.

Missouri from Jefferson City, or maybe even as far south as Springfield maybe north through Southern Iowa.

Southern Missouri kinda on its own.

The rest, "No Man's Land."

By no means perfect, and I haven't been to all of these places (well, I think I've at least been through all of these places at one point or another, but definitely haven't spent a lot of time in all of them). But if forced to do it, that's how I would. The St. Louis 'zone' could maybe even straddle the Mississippi to as far South as Memphis, although Memphis is pretty Southern. I just know that going to both, they were similar in some ways: rabid Cards fans, blues, bbq, well-established African American communities, some similar topography and historically 'river economies'.

But now I'm starting to dissect my very own definitions, so I'll leave this post be until I do too much of that....
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PosterExtraordinaire View Post
Not at all. And there are plenty of italians/puerto ricans through chicago. Outside of Miami and NYC, you won't find a higher concentration of Puerto Ricans than Chicago. Same thing goes for italians. How demographically is buffalo different from Chicago?
which makes Chicago(and to a lesser extent, Cleveland) have some things in common with the northeastern cities. Chicago is it's own city that is nothing like the great lakes cities. You are using the exception of the rule(Chicago) to make comparisons.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srsmn View Post
You're still just way out of whack on these "two definitions," though. If you think Minneapolis has *anything* in common with OKC, you've clearly never been to either.

If you think Milwaukee has soooo much in common with Rochester, you've clearly not been to one or the other....
I'm very confident on all the great lakes cities as I've been to all but duluth. And Rochester has much more in common with Milwaukee than Providence despite it being much closer to Providence. Hate to break it to ya.

I'll admit the cities I threw together in the great plains category maybe not good fits. I'm not well traveled there. And maybe I should have defined an "appalachian" region where pittsburgh and cincinnati could have shared a category. Since neither are stereotypical midwestern this isn't detracting from my belief that the traditional midwest is largely 2 regions.

As for Minneapolis, I know that's she a funky city surrounded by lakes while OKC is a conservative large town/small city with southern influences. But Minneapolis largely developed along the same lines as OKC which developed largely along the lines of other great plains cities. Just compare the skyline of Minneapolis to OKC...they resemble each other much more than if you compare the skyline of Minneapolis to Detroit or Rochester or Milwaukee or even St. Louis. The great lakes cities reached their peek 50,s60s and experienced decline in the 70s and 80s. And many continue to experience decline today, while the great plains is (slowly) booming and haven't peeked out yet. Minneapolis also functions as a hub for great plains states (like the dakotas) whereas not so much for the great lakes states (no one in wisconsin will drive to minneapolis over chicago).

Anyways, you have way too many categories for the midwest which defeats the purpose. why not just add a few more categories and categorize each city individually lol. I think mine (at least the great lakes/east coast which I'm well traveled) is a good one.

Last edited by PosterExtraordinaire; 07-24-2012 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garmin239 View Post
which makes Chicago(and to a lesser extent, Cleveland) have some things in common with the northeastern cities. Chicago is it's own city that is nothing like the great lakes cities. You are using the exception of the rule(Chicago) to make comparisons.
Chicago is nowhere near an exception, it's just much bigger than its surrounding neighbors (twice bigger than the next biggest city in the region: Detroit). If you believe Chicago and Cleveland are exceptions you're not well traveled in the great lakes cities.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PosterExtraordinaire View Post
Chicago is nowhere near an exception, it's just much bigger than its surrounding neighbors (twice bigger than the next biggest city in the region: Detroit). If you believe Chicago and Cleveland are exceptions you're not well traveled in the great lakes cities.
You are so far off on your observations I'm starting to think this isn't real. There have been countless threads on here displaying how Chicago differs from the rest of the midwest.
You have failed to display how the rest of the great lakes cities are similar to the NY cities. Being in the rust belt does not count as it is not a midwestern issue. Aside from a semi similar accent, I do not see many similarities.
People from both regions disagree with you. I think that's a good indication on how far off you are.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by garmin239 View Post
You are so far off on your observations I'm starting to think this isn't real. There have been countless threads on here displaying how Chicago differs from the rest of the midwest.
You have failed to display how the rest of the great lakes cities are similar to the NY cities. Being in the rust belt does not count as it is not a midwestern issue. Aside from a semi similar accent, I do not see many similarities.
People from both regions disagree with you. I think that's a good indication on how far off you are.
You and the guy disagree with me. The guy from utica agrees. So what's this 2 versus 2? And how is Chicago an exception from the rest of the great lakes cities? It only becomes an exception if you go west into Iowa and beyond.

The accent is also very similar. If the accent is similar chances are the culture is similar too (since the cultures have to interact enough to homogenize the accent).
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:39 AM
 
2,076 posts, read 3,082,358 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PosterExtraordinaire View Post
The accent is also very similar. If the accent is similar chances are the culture is similar too (since the cultures have to interact enough to homogenize the accent).

Northern Cities Vowel Shift - YouTube

Watch this video, start at about 35 seconds.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:53 AM
 
3,234 posts, read 7,636,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PosterExtraordinaire View Post
You and the guy disagree with me. The guy from utica agrees. So what's this 2 versus 2? And how is Chicago an exception from the rest of the great lakes cities? It only becomes an exception if you go west into Iowa and beyond.

The accent is also very similar. If the accent is similar chances are the culture is similar too (since the cultures have to interact enough to homogenize the accent).
Chicago is a very cosmopolitan worldly city. None of the other midwestern cities come close to that. It gets compared to NYC more than anything. And no, a similar accent does not equal a similar culture. The only postings I saw from a person from Utica were disagreeing with you. They specifically stated that the people couldn't be anymore different.
I've brought up a few points supporting my argument and your only retort was to give examples from cities with non midwestern influences such as Chicago.
You have failed to show how a city I live in(Rochester) compares to the rest of the great lakes cities. They are extremely different culturally. I mentioned prior that I am currently in Albany and I have more in common with somebody from here than anywhere in the midwest or coast. Using your logic, Albany is midwestern too which is laughable.
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