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Old 08-30-2012, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,141,440 times
Reputation: 809

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca View Post
I think Maryland is really the state that defines Mid-Atlantic and is the state that has most widely accepted that definition. In my experience, while Marylanders may identify as southerners or northerners, nearly all will agree to Mid-Atlantic. The other state that has widely accepted this is Delaware, while most of Pennsylvania seems to most strongly oppose the term.
I grew up in PA and I view it as Mid-Atlantic (also as Northeast). The Philadelphia accent is definitely a subset of the Mid-Atlantic accent (not to be confused with the Trans-Atlantic accent, which is also called Mid-Atlantic).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTarheel View Post
Like Civil War battlefields and memorials? Waffle House? Kudzu?

All very common in NOVA.
All of those except kudzu are in Pennsylvania.

Last edited by pgm123; 08-31-2012 at 12:10 AM..

 
Old 08-31-2012, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,141,440 times
Reputation: 809
As a compliment to the image earlier that showed the concentration of Baptists, here is the majority region for (most of) the counties of the United States:



Article on the same subject: http://theelectoralmap.com/2011/01/2...e-south-begin/

I find the Sweet Tea line to be interesting: http://eightoverfive.com/SweetTea.swf

However, I would include the whole range that served Sweet Tea (as in the Southern Range) and not simply the line of best fit. Any measure that doesn't have Richmond as the South is probably wrong.

Last edited by pgm123; 08-31-2012 at 12:46 AM..
 
Old 08-31-2012, 06:03 AM
 
Location: PG County, MD
582 posts, read 776,029 times
Reputation: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Good luck finding much that is southern culturally in northern Virginia.
Or northern in southern Maryland.
 
Old 08-31-2012, 06:26 AM
 
Location: PG County, MD
582 posts, read 776,029 times
Reputation: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
As a compliment to the image earlier that showed the concentration of Baptists, here is the majority region for (most of) the counties of the United States:

I find the Sweet Tea line to be interesting: http://eightoverfive.com/SweetTea.swf

However, I would include the whole range that served Sweet Tea (as in the Southern Range) and not simply the line of best fit. Any measure that doesn't have Richmond as the South is probably wrong.
I find both of those to be a bit misleading.

True, Maryland is primarily Catholic while Virginia is mostly Baptist. However, Marylands % of Catholics is nowhere near that of more Northern States, and its % of Baptists is much greater than more northern states.
Despite what the maps say though, I would call Methodism the defining religion in Maryland. There's a methodist church every couple miles or so over the entire state and they seem the most active in the community compared to other denominations. Plus a great part of the attendance in Methodist churches are other protestants and even catholics who cannot find their denomination in the area - making the churches bigger than the religious identifiers show.

Percentages (Rounded)
North Carolina 10% Catholic, 38% Baptist, 9% Methodist
Virginia: 11% Catholic, 27% Baptist, 8% Methodist
Maryland: 24% Catholic, 18% Baptist, 11% Methodist
Delaware: 9% Catholic, 19% Baptist, 20% Methodist
Pennsylvania: 54% Catholic, 1% Baptist, 10% Methodist

So we can see here that majority by county can't be the only measure, as the area is really a transition zone, like it ends up being by nearly every other definition too.

True, you can find nonsweet tea all over Maryland. But can also find sweet tea all over Maryland. And nonsweet tea all over Virginia. That map makes no sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Good luck finding much that is southern culturally in northern Virginia.
Or northern in southern Maryland. State lines don't work culturally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
I grew up in PA and I view it as Mid-Atlantic (also as Northeast). The Philadelphia accent is definitely a subset of the Mid-Atlantic accent (not to be confused with the Trans-Atlantic accent, which is also called Mid-Atlantic).
All of those except kudzu are in Pennsylvania.
Where in PA? I spend a lot of time in Central PA and people do not identify with Mid-Atlantic there at all.

Last edited by Tezcatlipoca; 08-31-2012 at 06:45 AM..
 
Old 08-31-2012, 07:45 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,219 posts, read 19,521,254 times
Reputation: 12961
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
As a compliment to the image earlier that showed the concentration of Baptists, here is the majority region for (most of) the counties of the United States:



Article on the same subject: Where Does the South Begin?*|*The Electoral Map

I find the Sweet Tea line to be interesting: http://eightoverfive.com/SweetTea.swf

However, I would include the whole range that served Sweet Tea (as in the Southern Range) and not simply the line of best fit. Any measure that doesn't have Richmond as the South is probably wrong.
I was looking for this map. Thanks, it shows one of the broad cultural differences between the northeastern and the southern U.S.. Also, Washington, D.C. has notable catholic universities such as Georgetown and the Catholic University of America. The largest Catholic Church building in the U.S. is also in Washington, D.C. - the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.
 
Old 08-31-2012, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,141,440 times
Reputation: 809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca View Post
I find both of those to be a bit misleading.

True, Maryland is primarily Catholic while Virginia is mostly Baptist. However, Marylands % of Catholics is nowhere near that of more Northern States, and its % of Baptists is much greater than more northern states.
Despite what the maps say though, I would call Methodism the defining religion in Maryland. There's a methodist church every couple miles or so over the entire state and they seem the most active in the community compared to other denominations. Plus a great part of the attendance in Methodist churches are other protestants and even catholics who cannot find their denomination in the area - making the churches bigger than the religious identifiers show.

Percentages (Rounded)
North Carolina 10% Catholic, 38% Baptist, 9% Methodist
Virginia: 11% Catholic, 27% Baptist, 8% Methodist
Maryland: 24% Catholic, 18% Baptist, 11% Methodist
Delaware: 9% Catholic, 19% Baptist, 20% Methodist
Pennsylvania: 54% Catholic, 1% Baptist, 10% Methodist

So we can see here that majority by county can't be the only measure, as the area is really a transition zone, like it ends up being by nearly every other definition too.

True, you can find nonsweet tea all over Maryland. But can also find sweet tea all over Maryland. And nonsweet tea all over Virginia. That map makes no sense to me.
Yes, it's certainly a transition zone. I don't buy the idea that cultural borders stop at state borders (perhaps rivers, but that's it). The Baptist line, though, is showing the Baptist = Southern, not necessarily that Catholic = Northern. Catholicism dominates in large chunks of the country, so it can't really be localized. As far as Methodists go, Delaware is more Methodist than Maryland, so that's probably not a good measure of being Southern.

As for the Sweet Tea Line, it measures McDonald's in 2004. Sweet Tea has since gone national, but at the time, it was a strictly Southern thing for McDonald's. The fact that McDonald's did not think it would sell in Northern Virginia is telling.

Quote:
Or northern in southern Maryland. State lines don't work culturally.

Where in PA? I spend a lot of time in Central PA and people do not identify with Mid-Atlantic there at all.
I grew up in the Philly suburbs. Perhaps it helps that it's closer to the Atlantic. Although, I've come to find out that my definition of Mid-Atlantic is a bit weird because I include New York (I thought it fit neatly to have New England as one area and the Mid-Atlantic as another). Linguistically, Philadelphia and South Jersey are in the same group as Delaware and Baltimore. I haven't been able to find evidence whether or not DC is considered that. It has no Southern accent now, but did have a slight one in 1940, it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I was looking for this map. Thanks, it shows one of the broad cultural differences between the northeastern and the southern U.S.. Also, Washington, D.C. has notable catholic universities such as Georgetown and the Catholic University of America. The largest Catholic Church building in the U.S. is also in Washington, D.C. - the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.
Georgetown University is a big deal, but I think the National Shrine is simply because DC is the capital.
 
Old 08-31-2012, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Lincoln, NE (via SW Virginia)
1,644 posts, read 1,794,252 times
Reputation: 1053
Again...I think the list made I made earlier in this thread is validated to some degree by most of the subsequent posts. I will reiterate it again to see if we still have disagreement. Here is the south starting north and going down and then west.
-Virginia (excluding NOVA ******* suburbs) **As a virginian...notice my discontent for this portion even being considered apart of my state**
-North Carolina (excluding research triangle)
-South Carolina
-Tennessee
-Kentucky (excluding Northern KY...cincy suburbs)
-Georgia
-Florida (excluding Orlando and south)
-Alabama
-Mississippi
-Arkansas
-Louisiana (excluding New Orleans to some degree)
-Texas (excluding the panhandle and west Texas)

STATES WITH SOUTHERN SECTIONS:
-Missouri Bootheel
-Southern Maryland

This seems to be the most comprehensive list I can make based on what i've seen in this thread. Does anyone have any quarrells?
 
Old 08-31-2012, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Shaw.
2,226 posts, read 3,141,440 times
Reputation: 809
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnewberry22 View Post
Again...I think the list made I made earlier in this thread is validated to some degree by most of the subsequent posts. I will reiterate it again to see if we still have disagreement. Here is the south starting north and going down and then west.
-Virginia (excluding NOVA ******* suburbs) **As a virginian...notice my discontent for this portion even being considered apart of my state**
-North Carolina (excluding research triangle)
-South Carolina
-Tennessee
-Kentucky (excluding Northern KY...cincy suburbs)
-Georgia
-Florida (excluding Orlando and south)
-Alabama
-Mississippi
-Arkansas
-Louisiana (excluding New Orleans to some degree)
-Texas (excluding the panhandle and west Texas)

STATES WITH SOUTHERN SECTIONS:
-Missouri Bootheel
-Southern Maryland

This seems to be the most comprehensive list I can make based on what i've seen in this thread. Does anyone have any quarrells?
No, that looks pretty much perfect. I was just trying to figure out why that's the case.

The next question to ponder is if the South can be divided into broad regions (as in bigger than CSAs or Megacities). For example, is the Deep South/Upper South an accurate divide? Or is it better to simply look at the South as a whole.
 
Old 08-31-2012, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Lincoln, NE (via SW Virginia)
1,644 posts, read 1,794,252 times
Reputation: 1053
The south most definitely is divided between deep and upper. South Alabama is nothing like upstate SC and so on. Southwest VA is nothing like eastern NC and Eastern NC is nothing like north-central Mississippi. The South is a HUGE area and it follows suit that it is different in each area. Southern Appalachia is a big area and extremely different than the coastal south. To reduce it the just, "the south" misses it a bit I think. So, I think it is definitely better in terms of gathering a real idea for the cultural identity to reduce it to regions. Just like new england and the rest of the northeast.
 
Old 08-31-2012, 10:03 AM
 
Location: PG County, MD
582 posts, read 776,029 times
Reputation: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnewberry22 View Post
Again...I think the list made I made earlier in this thread is validated to some degree by most of the subsequent posts. I will reiterate it again to see if we still have disagreement. Here is the south starting north and going down and then west.
-Virginia (excluding NOVA ******* suburbs) **As a virginian...notice my discontent for this portion even being considered apart of my state**
-North Carolina (excluding research triangle)
-South Carolina
-Tennessee
-Kentucky (excluding Northern KY...cincy suburbs)
-Georgia
-Florida (excluding Orlando and south)
-Alabama
-Mississippi
-Arkansas
-Louisiana (excluding New Orleans to some degree)
-Texas (excluding the panhandle and west Texas)

STATES WITH SOUTHERN SECTIONS:
-Missouri Bootheel
-Southern Maryland

This seems to be the most comprehensive list I can make based on what i've seen in this thread. Does anyone have any quarrells?
Perfect.
I'm not sure how much disagreement there is now, I just enjoy discussing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm123 View Post
As far as Methodists go, Delaware is more Methodist than Maryland, so that's probably not a good measure of being Southern.
I'm not saying it's Southern: Methodist Churches just religiously define Maryland and Delaware to me. I think they have the biggest cultural effect on these states despite apparently not being the majority. Maryland and Delaware do however have many more baptists than other northeast coast states do, but still less than the southeast states.

Last edited by Tezcatlipoca; 08-31-2012 at 10:11 AM..
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